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Old 16-05-2015, 16:39   #91
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
To be slightly back on track . . . .
…………….
And finally, you really need to read the report I posted above if you think the private "rescue" center is comparable to a western official one. They are a for profit organization and do not in any way devote the resources or attention that the wester official ones do (but they are better than official capabilities in Indonesia). Just for instance, their official policy is to stop all activity if the SOS signal terminates, because usually that means it was a false signal and if is a waste of resources to then still chase it down. But the official rescue centers will chase it down until they absolutely know because it could be that the unit was damaged or battery ran out or sunk and people are still in trouble (the exact case in the Aegean incident)……...
This is (IMO) a significant point.

And an allied question, does the Inreach product have a "set and forget" style of operation. In other words, can you just turn it on, maybe press one button and it will then transit a distress message all by itself until the battery is flat and/or for a predetermined time (say 24 / 48 hrs) OR you do have to trigger it each and every time and/or respond to their comms centre in order to have the distress authenticated?
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Old 16-05-2015, 18:11   #92
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

^^ yes, the Inreach does have a "press and forget" operation.

Your location will be sent to GOES (the third party emergency center) as follows:
• First ten minutes, every sixty seconds
• Ten minutes to one hour, every ten minutes
• One hour to eight hours, every 15 minutes
• Eight hours to 24 hours, every 60 minutes

That is pretty well designed. But #1 do note that location is going to GEOS and NOT the official rescue assets. GEOS then forward it on to the rescue services (which has been screwed up in instances). And #2 it is a burst that is not 'read-able nor home-able" by current SAR assets, unlike current epirbs.

I would suggest that the correct/best procedure is to fire off your Epirb (which starts the official maritime response) and then contact the official rescue center with your two way comms and say "yes that's me you see on your screen, yes I need help, and here is the situation". And (Assuming you have time) then contact your personal/family emergency designated person so they know what's going on and can help coordinate. And just simply skip GEOS, who provide little value add in a maritime situation (they provide more value add in land situations where the rescue authorities are often less well organized).
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Old 16-05-2015, 18:51   #93
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
^^ yes, the Inreach does have a "press and forget" operation.

Your location will be sent to GOES (the third party emergency center) as follows:
• First ten minutes, every sixty seconds
• Ten minutes to one hour, every ten minutes
• One hour to eight hours, every 15 minutes
• Eight hours to 24 hours, every 60 minutes

That is pretty well designed. But #1 do note that location is going to GEOS and NOT the official rescue assets. GEOS then forward it on to the rescue services (which has been screwed up in instances). And #2 it is a burst that is not 'read-able nor home-able" by current SAR assets, unlike current epirbs.

I would suggest that the correct/best procedure is to fire off your Epirb (which starts the official maritime response) and then contact the official rescue center with your two way comms and say "yes that's me you see on your screen, yes I need help, and here is the situation". And (Assuming you have time) then contact your personal/family emergency designated person so they know what's going on and can help coordinate. And just simply skip GEOS, who provide little value add in a maritime situation (they provide more value add in land situations where the rescue authorities are often less well organized).
Thanks, good info.
Can I assume that each of these transmissions have a current (i.e. updated) GPS coordinates as part of the data bust - unlike some GEPIRBs which don't always update the GPS data each transmission.
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Old 16-05-2015, 18:52   #94
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
To be slightly back on track . . . . So we have a choice of offshore (which here will mean out of vhf and cell range) comms devices. They each have their own pros and cons. Which you choose to carry will simply depend on your priorities.

My take for "best in class" is:

Weather and technical advice (mechanical and medical) = best is sat phone (very distant 2nd is Inreach)
Two way emergency communication = best is sat phone (2nd is Inreach)
Emergency beacon = best is Epirb (tied 2nd sat phone & Inreach)
Tracking = best is Inreach (2nd is sat phone)
Casual sms chat with family = best tie Inreach & sat phone

(Note, yes, I have owned and used all these offshore)

For me personally, the weather and technical advice is the highest priority as it lets me avoid problems and/or solve them myself. So I want the best gear to do that. So my #1 purchases a sat phone (note: hf techs might pick an hf instead but I would not but that is a topic to be debated elsewhere).

Second, if I get into trouble and really really need someone to come find me, I want the very best beacon, and that means the second purchase is an Epirb.

Then if you want the family to have high frequency tracking points, or a backup, I would get the Inreach third.

That's my personal thinking. But I could understand if the budget was tight getting an Inreach first (or only) . . . . But I will comment its capability to give you weather in no way at all compares to a sat phone. . . . Even if you have a friend ashore, even if he is a pro met guy (which he probably is not), he still cannot combine the weather data with your actual conditions nor give you a full sense of the possible scenarios.

And finally, you really need to read the report I posted above if you think the private "rescue" center is comparable to a western official one. They are a for profit organization and do not in any way devote the resources or attention that the wester official ones do (but they are better than official capabilities in Indonesia). Just for instance, their official policy is to stop all activity if the SOS signal terminates, because usually that means it was a false signal and if is a waste of resources to then still chase it down. But the official rescue centers will chase it down until they absolutely know because it could be that the unit was damaged or battery ran out or sunk and people are still in trouble (the exact case in the Aegean incident).

If you have an Epirb and an Inreach, in an emergency you should definitely fire the Epirb first. It will scramble official aTrenton and assets the quickest. Then you can use the Inreach or sat phone to do two way.

Great post! I value your experience!


I would never set sail without a GPIRB. If the boat I bought already had a complete SSB setup with Pactor modem, I'd keep it. If it didn't, I'd probably buy an Inreach instead of an SSB setup just because of the difference in cost, even though the Inreach requires a service plan and SSB doesn't.

I don't see any sat phone replacing EPIRBs/GPIRBs, but they'd be a great supplemental means of emergency alert and communication.
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Old 16-05-2015, 19:43   #95
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

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EPIRBS are not dead. Proven technology, have saved many lives. I am keeping mine and will replace it with a new one at end of life.
Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
No, epirbs are not dead. Perhaps not even reached their heyday yet. But the OP has highlighted a very useful tool that can be used for emergency assistance. When they become cheap enough I'd certainly get one if I ever travel outside internet range. But at the moment I think there monthly rental is too expensive.
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Old 16-05-2015, 19:53   #96
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Thanks, good info.
Can I assume that each of these transmissions have a current (i.e. updated) GPS coordinates as part of the data bust - unlike some GEPIRBs which don't always update the GPS data each transmission.
Yes, each burst includes location fields, and it in fact bursts extra times if your position moves more than 100m. I do not know what the current Inreach protocol is if the device does not have a current fix at the time of burst. SPOT used to send blank fields in that case.

The Inreach product is pretty nice. My only physical improvement suggests would be to make the 12vt power plug waterproof and more robust. The SMS and tracking does work very well with family. As you can tell I am not a fan of having GEOS in the emergency signal loop - for maritime rescue they just seem to add an extra linkage with extra time and error potential.

With epirbs, I might comment that we have seen several significant SAR errors when the coordination has to cross languages (for example with a German registered EPIRB in trouble in chile) and also in waters supposedly covered by 3rd world SAR assets (eg Indonesia). So (of course) nothing here is perfect.

And, again, I hope all our first priority is to stay out of trouble, and second priority to get ourselves out of trouble, and only a very distant 3rd to call someone to come get us.
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Old 17-05-2015, 12:12   #97
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

“…our first priority is to stay out of trouble, and second priority to get ourselves out of trouble, and only a very distant 3rd to call someone to come get us.” estarzinger

Amen to that! I had a recent experience that is somewhat relevant to this discussion, one that showed the limitations of the inreach, an excellent tracking device, in the above priorities 1 and 2. Last August (2014) I sailed double-handed from Kuaui to CA. We left Kuaui immediately after hurricanes Iselle skirted the islands as it headed west, and Julio passed E of the island headed more or less N. Our plan was to sail north and then under the pacific high roughly between 30 and 34N into the Santa Barbara channel. However two additional hurricanes (Lowell and Marie) came between us and our goal and motivated us to take a more northern route. During this trip I checked in daily with the pacific seafarer’s HAM net (14.300, 0325Z checkin) and monitored weather using GRIBs and weatherfax, all via HF – routine stuff. Another sailing vessel in the net had similar sailing plans, HI to southern CA. However, along the way, that vessel, also double-handed, lost its engine and much of its electronics, including its autopilot and laptops, but was still able to use the SSB to speak on the net, and via the net contacted us for weather routing assistance. He also had an inreach but was unable to receive satisfactory weather using that. So daily, after the net, we chatted briefly on a HAM frequency and I relayed the high seas forecast and my synopsis of the synoptic charts I had downloaded earlier in the day. Essentially we stayed above 36N and so avoided the hurricanes and their byproduct (Marie made it to ~34N before dissipating). The other vessel was able to contact us and his girlfriend ashore via emails sent via the inreach and that was useful for morale (they were exhausted by days of hand steering) and for making marina reservations. Being able to participate in nets (essentially wireless conference calls) is my main reason for continuing to use the SSB/HAM radio system aboard – I don’t know how this would work on an inreach (or sat phone). And, at least in this case, the inreach wasn’t up to receiving vital weather info thus failing 1st and 2nd priorities listed above. The inreach did serve as backup email device.

For the record: my sailboat carries an up-to-date EPIRB mounted at the companion way, and the ditch bag contents include a PLB and handheld VHF.
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Old 17-05-2015, 20:01   #98
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

^^^ +1

What people who mainly communicate via telephone or internet sometimes fail to realize is that out in the ocean it is often very helpful to talk to people without knowing their email address or phone number. SSB is the only long distance method of communication where you don't have to know the other persons telecom "coordinates". You only have to know the right frequency and time of day. And you don't always have to reach the exact person you want. Sometimes (a lot of times) you can reach a scheduled net and someone on the net may be able to relay your message or help you find someone who can help.

Also, SSB equipped boats can often better render assistance because they can overhear a conversation and offer to help. But with sat phones or SMS systems no one else overhears the discussion. Two boats could pass within 100 miles of one another and not know the other exists if they don't have SSB.

It takes a different way of thinking about communications to appreciate why SSB (and VHF for that matter) is important for safety of boat and crew.
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Old 17-05-2015, 20:08   #99
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

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^^^ +1

What people who mainly communicate via telephone or internet sometimes fail to realize is that out in the ocean it is often very helpful to talk to people without knowing their email address or phone number. SSB is the only long distance method of communication where you don't have to know the other persons telecom "coordinates". You only have to know the right frequency and time of day. And you don't always have to reach the exact person you want. Sometimes (a lot of times) you can reach a scheduled net and someone on the net may be able to relay your message or help you find someone who can help.

Also, SSB equipped boats can often better render assistance because they can overhear a conversation and offer to help. But with sat phones or SMS systems no one else overhears the discussion. Two boats could pass within 100 miles of one another and not know the other exists if they don't have SSB.

It takes a different way of thinking about communications to appreciate why SSB (and VHF for that matter) is important for safety of boat and crew.

Good points.

In that respect, SSB is like posting a question on a forum, with no specific addressee for the question. The answers may be many, come from great distance, and be helpful or invaluable, and FREE as long as we are using an open communication form.

Now I really want an SSB more than ever before.
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Old 17-05-2015, 21:52   #100
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

I want to thank everyone for their responses. As I hoped, I've learned some things.

As suggested by several of you, my plan is now to activate my EPIRB and Inreach SOS at the same time. The EPIRB signal starts a proven rescue process that can't be easily dropped. The Inreach:

A) Provides time saving verification to SAR that the EPIRB signal is not a false alarm.
B) Gives me a confirmation that a rescue is underway
C) Provides ongoing two-way communication with rescuers.

I've even added my Inreach address into the notes of the EPIRB registration database to help SAR understand that I have both systems.

I also like that the InReach allows communication prior to the declaration of a MayDay (and EPIRB activation). In a difficult situation that might deteriorate into a MayDay, I would establish contact with the Delorme center early and often and have them notify the local SAR of the situation. Ideally, Delorme would provide local SAR my Inreach address so that they could contact me directly via SMS/Email and establish a regular contact schedule. As with radio.

And yes, the InReach needs a better weather solution. Ocens offers one for the Inreach that provides 72 hour wind, direction and pressure forecasts for a specified lat/lon. While you could get an idea of weather systems by requesting many lat/lon's, that's not a very good solution. A GRIB file would be far better. Since I have an excellent GRIB viewer (PocketGrib) on the Iphone I use with the InReach, it's just a matter of solving the data size/format problem. I've asked Delorme to find a way (you guys could ask too )

SpotCast Weather


Thanks again.

Carl
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Old 18-05-2015, 02:53   #101
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

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Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post

Good points.

In that respect, SSB is like posting a question on a forum, with no specific addressee for the question. The answers may be many, come from great distance, and be helpful or invaluable, and FREE as long as we are using an open communication form.

Now I really want an SSB more than ever before.
me too.
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Old 18-05-2015, 02:56   #102
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

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I want to thank everyone for their responses. As I hoped, I've learned some things.

As suggested by several of you, my plan is now to activate my EPIRB and Inreach SOS at the same time. The EPIRB signal starts a proven rescue process that can't be easily dropped. The Inreach:

A) Provides time saving verification to SAR that the EPIRB signal is not a false alarm.
B) Gives me a confirmation that a rescue is underway
C) Provides ongoing two-way communication with rescuers.

I've even added my Inreach address into the notes of the EPIRB registration database to help SAR understand that I have both systems.

I also like that the InReach allows communication prior to the declaration of a MayDay (and EPIRB activation). In a difficult situation that might deteriorate into a MayDay, I would establish contact with the Delorme center early and often and have them notify the local SAR of the situation. Ideally, Delorme would provide local SAR my Inreach address so that they could contact me directly via SMS/Email and establish a regular contact schedule. As with radio.

And yes, the InReach needs a better weather solution. Ocens offers one for the Inreach that provides 72 hour wind, direction and pressure forecasts for a specified lat/lon. While you could get an idea of weather systems by requesting many lat/lon's, that's not a very good solution. A GRIB file would be far better. Since I have an excellent GRIB viewer (PocketGrib) on the Iphone I use with the InReach, it's just a matter of solving the data size/format problem. I've asked Delorme to find a way (you guys could ask too )

SpotCast Weather


Thanks again.

Carl
sounds like good direction Carl. I'm getting quite interested in this InReach for my next big trip.
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Old 18-05-2015, 04:22   #103
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

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. . .
If my sorry butt needs a rescue, I would want a device built and certified to save sorry butts. Either a PLB for coastal or epirb for off shore. Preferably one by ACR. ..
+1!

All the other stuff if great, and multiple redundancy is all good here, but for goodness' sake start with the certified and true GMDSS systems:

1. EPIRB and/or PLB
2. VHF DSC
3. HF DSC

then if you still have money left, then by all means, go to sat phones, Spots, satellite messengers, etc.


I keep an (ACR) PLB lanyarded inside my life jacket, just to be sure that there is no chance that it could be left behind in a hasty abandon ship. EPIRB/PLB should be Plan A, Plan B, and Plan C in open water beyond VHF/DSC range. After that, everything else, IMHO.

Uniquely powerful in this range of distress signalling is HF DSC. This gives two way comms as well as signalling nearby vessels, something EPIRB/PLB doesn't give. But requires a fairly expensive installation, and skill and practice in operation, something relatively few cruisers have time or energy for.
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Old 18-05-2015, 04:32   #104
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
. .
And, again, I hope all our first priority is to stay out of trouble, and second priority to get ourselves out of trouble, and only a very distant 3rd to call someone to come get us.
Wise words.

Signalling for fulfilling the second priority is a completely different task, than for the third. The Rebel Heart debacle really underlines this.

For that, you must have two way comms. Take your pick: (a) sat phone; (b) sat messenger; (c) HF radio. WHICH WORK, remembering Rebel Heart.

I am one of those who like HF radio, but I will say that satellite messengers like InReach and YellowBrick are really elegant systems, in my opinion more powerful than sat phones, and much more economical. I intend to have one of these on board when I start spending more time further off shore, in addition to HF radio. Not at all to replace an EPIRB, however!
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Old 18-05-2015, 09:12   #105
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

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+1!

All the other stuff if great, and multiple redundancy is all good here, but for goodness' sake start with the certified and true GMDSS systems:

1. EPIRB and/or PLB
2. VHF DSC
3. HF DSC

then if you still have money left, then by all means, go to sat phones, Spots, satellite messengers, etc.


I keep an (ACR) PLB lanyarded inside my life jacket, just to be sure that there is no chance that it could be left behind in a hasty abandon ship. EPIRB/PLB should be Plan A, Plan B, and Plan C in open water beyond VHF/DSC range. After that, everything else, IMHO.

Uniquely powerful in this range of distress signalling is HF DSC. This gives two way comms as well as signalling nearby vessels, something EPIRB/PLB doesn't give. But requires a fairly expensive installation, and skill and practice in operation, something relatively few cruisers have time or energy for.
I'm not convinced that HF is all that great. I routinely listen to the Pacific and ham nets and I have never been able to hear a transmission from any boats, and I'm only 20 mi from the coast. I am in a valley, but I have 3 different receivers using 3 different antennas. I can hear the shore stations clearly, but I've never heard who they're talking to.

The same goes for the ham nets, I can hear the near side of the conversation, but I can't hear the ham at the other end. These guys are using 500 - 1,000 watts, most of the time 800 - 1,000 watts. I don't think it's a power issue, I think it's more of a skip zone issue. You have to really know what frequency to use at what time of day to have the bounced wave hit the shore. At night, I can hear radio Havana loud and clear, and transmitters from China fairly well, but still have never heard a single cruiser transmission.

The analogy with a website only goes so far. Sure, anybody can hear you, but also a lot of people can't hear you. Out of the billions of people on the internet, how many are answering this thread. Only a handful, who are specifically looking for this type of info. I was on a sub west of HI and we tried to contact COMSUBPAC in Pearl Harbor on HF open comms. We ended up talking to the sub base in Pt. Loma, San Diego, nobody in HI could hear us, even though they were the closest land. The sub base relayed the message via phone, but it was a big hassle.

YMMV, but my experience with HF comms is: it's very hit or miss, not something I'd hang my hopes on. The sub fleet now uses satcomms almost exclusively for normal traffic, partially to remain undetected.

From a cost/benefit ratio: if the boat already has HF, I'd keep it. If it doesn't, I don't think I'd spend $5,000 to install the whole shebang with a Pactor modem when the satellites seem to be a lot easier to raise. It seems to me that's why the EPIRBs use satellites.
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