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Old 15-05-2015, 17:56   #76
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by socaldmax View Post
Oh, I'm not saying don't carry an EPIRB, this is all in response to Rustic Charm's assertion that nobody's ever been rescued and reported that their EPIRB failed. Logically, if you EPIRB failed and you have no backup, your chances of getting rescued are pretty close to zero since no one is going to start looking for you until you're overdue, which could be quite a while later.

I agree with you, we should all carry EPIRBs and a couple of other backups.
You commonly do this Socaldmax, I have not ''asserted' at all that ''nobody'' ever been rescued and reported that their epirb failed.

Given there are far more vessels out their that don't have an epirb and yet still get rescued then your 'logic' is flawed. People do need rescuing without epirbs and do get rescued. It's probable that most coastal rescues are carried out without epirbs.
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Old 15-05-2015, 18:01   #77
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

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Originally Posted by Leo Ticheli View Post
Has anyone claimed that EPIRBs work 100% of the time? Clearly they do not.
EPIRBs Failure - The Investigation Continues - gCaptain Maritime & Offshore News

Some accidents could be so sudden and catastrophic that the EPIRB could not be activated or went to the bottom with the ship.

Have sailors with failed EPIRBs been rescued by other means? I would think so, but I can't point to any specific report of such. I'd be interested in seeing it if anyone knows of it.

That an EPIRB can fail is beyond doubt; that's why back up systems are important, but the fact that some may fail is no reason not to carry one.


Fair winds,

Leo
most coastal vessels around Australia don't carry epirbs, much to the annoyance of authorities. YET, most get rescued.

LETS also not forget that at least in Australia the same epirb system is used for bushwalkers, so not only are there vast amounts of seaman who have them but bushwalkers. And again, it seems, at least reported rarely that epirbs fail.
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Old 15-05-2015, 18:18   #78
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

Socaldmax you might find this interesting reading.

EPIRBs Failure - The Investigation Continues - gCaptain Maritime & Offshore News
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Old 16-05-2015, 05:09   #79
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

8 years ago?


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Old 16-05-2015, 11:09   #80
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

This has been an interesting thread to read, with so many strong opinions. I think it is good when different views are heard and discussed openly.

To the original topic question: "Are EPIRBS dead?"

My POV: "There are many more sailors alive today because they had and used EPIRBS to assist in locating and rescuing them."

That number should be compared to those sailors lost (dead) because they did NOT have an EPIRB when they needed it, but that number is impossible to determine. What we DO know is that the use of an EPIRB IS documented as saving people (or more accurately, helping SAR KNOW they need rescue and then helping SAR find them).

Simply put, to answer the original question: I don't think the EPIRB is dead, but a sailor may be dead without one if one is really needed due to an emergency.

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Real World Stories of EPIRB Use
There is a very interesting web page/site where many real rescue stories are told by the survivors who used ONE company's products (a popular brand of EPIRB). I read many of those stories and found them fascinating, and more importantly, instructive.

It is good to see how the EPIRB helped those folks, but I also found it instructive to learn what caused their NEED for a rescue in the first place. Accidents happen, even to people who are prepared or are experienced sailors or boaters or pilots.

I highly recommend reading the stories on this page:
https://www.acrartex.com/survivors/

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Some other points (can't quote the commenters above, just going on memory here):

1. Batteries Fail Issue
I would much rather trust a good dedicated EPIRB battery, than a rechargeable battery that has been sitting or used in another device for other purposes on the boat.

I also like the idea of my EPIRB being dedicated to ONE use (emergency) rather than having a multi-use device that may be misused by some user or accidentally used or used and abused or lost overboard or left uncharged etc.
Scene in Liferaft after Sailboat is Abandoned by a Family:

Father/Skipper: "We will be rescued! Don't worry, we will just use our text messaging device to call for help now. (pause) WHAT the FKKK! The battery is dead!"

Teen Age Daughter: "Oh daddy, I used that last night to text my friends and my boyfriend. You said it was OK for me to use it."
2. EPIRBS Fail to Signal Issue (Boats Lost Without EPIRB signal)

I think it is likely that some boats have sunk rapidly without the crew properly activating the EPIRB. As just one example, this can happen when a boat is rundown by a large vessel. There are documented cases of boats (some are even very large vessels) sinking in a very few minutes (2-5)! Anyone remember the Edmund Fitzgerald? In such conditions, it does not surprise me that a boat would go down with the crew and with the EPIRB still locked in a dormant state (unactivated) IF that boat even had an EPIRB. Many boats have gone down without the crew even getting off the boat. So it does not surprise me that the EPIRB was not activated IF that boat had one aboard. And I remember reading of some yacht (years ago) that abandoned their yacht without their EPIRB. It happens.

3. I like the idea of having some kind of "two way" communication (such as the Inreach device offers), but I PREFER to have the reliability of the EPIRB with GPS (latest models).

4. IF I were on a sinking yacht crossing the Pacific, I would rather depend on a good relatively new EPIRB with GPS instead of a text message or email to ANYONE and rather than a satellite phone call too.

5. Are emails and text messages to third parties or friends fool proof?
My email box was full the other day. I could not send or receive more messages. I wonder has that ever happened to anyone else? Anyone ever gotten emails "bounced back?" I have been on vacation and come back to hundreds of emails stuffing my inbox. I don't have time to read them all. Has that happened to anyone? I have a SPAM filter on my email service. Occasionally an important message gets sent to the SPAM folder. Has that ever happened to anyone? My internet service/connection was shut down for hours due to a thunderstorm. Has that ever happened to anyone? My email service was "temporarily unavailable" due to technical issues at the ISP. Has that ever happened to anyone? My point? I don't think depending on friends or email or text messages is the fool proof solution.

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What Would I Do?

If going on a long voyage offshore today (e.g. crossing the ocean), I would:

Must Have:

1. Recent manufacture floating waterproof EPIRB with GPS.

2. File a float plan (including notifying relatives and friends of my ETA and routes) with the USCG. There is even a new free official USCG app for smart phones which is designed to make this very easy for anyone to file a float plan with USCG.

3. Take a PLB (backup to EPIRB)

4. Floating handheld VHF with GPS, AIS, DSC with spare batteries in waterproof case.

5. Flares, Dye Marker, Smoke, Strobe, and Signal Mirror
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Nice to Have:

4. Have some means of long distance two way communication. (Inreach sounds good, SAT Phone sounds good or better)

5. Marine SSB Radio - Short Wave radio
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Old 16-05-2015, 11:28   #81
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

Survival at Sea is a Serious Topic!

And the loss of life at sea is no laughing matter! (Seriously!)

But, sometimes the discussion of such topics can become hostile, as differing opinions are aired and positions (on issues or methods) challenged.

I find that a little humor often helps a forum or a group at such times. So I am adding something here I wrote that is intended to be taken with a wink and hopefully will cause a few to chuckle and perhaps bring a little lesson to the issue too. Remember to consider this as humor.
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Scenario? Using Text Messages to Get Rescued

The following is a transcript of text messages. A few acronyms have been noted in parenthesis with common meanings. Note that this is a transcript. Some typos may have happened due to autocomplete on the text device.

SAILOR: OMG! Skipper says we have to abandon the goat. We are FKKD!!

RECEIVER: You FKKD a goat? OMG! You FRK!

RECEIVER: OMG! My BFF just got dropped by her dorky BF. LOL DIKU (Do I Know You?) Skipper? Who are you Gilligan? LOL

SAILOR: I meant boat BOAT!

SAILOR: We are skining!!!

RECEIVER: Skiing? How Fun!!! Lucky you! Who theF is this? I wish I could go skiing. I have to work.

SAILOR: NO we are sinking! We need help!! Now!!!

RECEIVER: BFD I'm busy. We all need help. Get a life! WTH! DIY! (Big Freaking Deal, What The Heck/Hell, Do It Yourself)

SAILOR: Please get us!!

RECEIVER: Oh I get you, loser. BRBNC (Be Right Back Nature Calls)

SAILOR: In your raft!!!

RECEIVER: NO, Up yours!

SAILOR: I meant in OUR raft

SAILOR: We are sinking!!

RECEIVER: more like STINKING! LOL!!

SAILOR: Help me please!!

RECEIVER: UFWM (You "freaking" with me?)

RECEIVER: CTN, BIB (Can't Talk Now, Boss Is Back)

SAILOR: No, really, we can't weight. We need help. We need rescue!

RECEIVER (now on Key Word Auto Response): Have you seen the latest weight loss secret? It is a tiny pill that only costs $29.99 plus S&H. Act now to get your free 30 day supply of "Weight Rescue"

SAILOR: We can't WAIT! Please, God, help us!

RECEIVER (now on Key Word Auto Response): Have you received the everlasting Word of God? Send your donations to Reverend Benny's World Ministry to help spread the word. Text 1244 14124112 to make your donation today.

SAILOR: Our boat is gone. Please rescue me!

RECEIVER (now on Key Word Auto Response): Have you seen the DVD of season three of Rescue Me? It is available for just $19.99 plus S&H. Blueray is only $24.99 plus S&H

SAILOR: Please, my battery is almost DEAD!

RECEIVER (now on Key Word Auto Response): Have you seen the DVD of season four of Walking Dead? It is available for just $19.99 plus S&H. Blueray is only $24.99 plus S&H

SAILOR: My battery is almost de

RECEIVER: CB CBL (Coffee Break, Check Back Later)

RECEIVER: (Later) UST (You still there?)

(END OF TRANSCRIPT)
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Old 16-05-2015, 11:37   #82
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
> heck I've seen my chartplotter GPS with WAAS differential put me 25m (80ft) onto dry land when I know for a fact I'm 20m away from the beach!!).

In that situation, it's the chart that's out - not the GPS.
No it was the GPS as my phone showed almost the exact same thing at the same time and I even updated the aGPS data by switching on the roaming data to make sure. The phone uses OSMand+ maps compared to Navionics Platinum on the chartplotter before anyone says same charts. I'm pretty sure had I been arsed to dig out the handheld GPS from the grab bag and stuff in the AAs it would have shown the same damn thing.

GPS is not as accurate as everyone makes out, even with the US military switching off the degradation signal. Even with GLONASS and GALLILEO adding into the number of satellites you can tap into there are times when Sat Nav accuracy drops into the 10's of metres and even into the 100's. And don't get me started on when they add or take a second from the signal! Oh you should see the hassles that causes on a deepwater dynamically positioned drilling rig!!

As I said previously 2 systems are better than 1 and this new "InReach" system sounds like it could prove to be very useful. Particularly if communications centres are set up for areas like the Mediterranean, North Sea/Atlantic margin of UK/EU, South China Sea, Australia etc rather than just relying on someone in West Bumblefook, Alabama (no offence to our American cousinbrothers but you guys have a shocking grasp of international geography sometimes).

Let's be honest no single system is idiot proof or totally reliable so we should never put our lives in the faith of one system. We all have VHF (or should have), pyrotechnics, might have a SART or EPIRB, may have a Shortwave or even a SatComm system so any additions to the arsenal of weaponry we have that might just get us out of the merde when it is up to our necks has to be a bonus.

Last and final point: as much as we may complain about the inadequacies of the various coastguard services, MRCCs, SARs we may have how many of us have put our hands in our pockets and said thank you? I for one support the RNLI in the UK every chance I get. As a totally voluntary outfit these guys and girls are the true heroes and deserve every penny we can give them.

Keiron
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Old 16-05-2015, 11:45   #83
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
I've already read it. Between that, and your admitting that a lot of times people don't have the chance to activate their EPIRBs, so far that makes your argument the strongest one in this thread about EPIRBs being less effective than we thought.
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Old 16-05-2015, 12:54   #84
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the defensive tone in a lot of these responses. People like us who insist on using a 1000 year old propulsion system (sails) might be called resistant to change. But I think a lot of posters are missing the overwhelming advantage of two way distress communications rather than the brief, unconfirmed, one way communication offered by an EPIRB.

In a distress situation, the InReach signal starts off just like an EPIRB. You press a red button marked SOS. It sends a lat/lon and identifier to the distress center. They look up your registration information in their database then contact the appropriate SAR center. My database entry is loaded with the same information that I put on the EPIRB beacon site including emergency contacts and phone, description of my vessel, liferaft, dinghy. Normal cruising grounds. I even put in my EPIRB Beacon ID to limit confusion if I've sent distress signals on both devices.

But at this point, the advantages of the two-way InReach over the one-way EPIRB become clear. While the EPIRB can only send the same location and ID information over and over, the Delorme distress center and the assigned SAR will initiate two way communication with me via the InReach.

It's most unlikely that I will need to contact anyone else because the Delorme emergency center will respond. But the InReach at least gives me the option. There is no option to send an EPIRB message to a different MRCC or even know if one received it. I have a long list of SAR emails pre-loaded in my InReach as backups. The Canadians made this easy: SAR Contacts - Search and Rescue Contacts World-Wide

I believe that the EPIRB is far more likely to have a problem or a dead battery than the Inreach. No one uses my InReach but me. Battery life is double an EPIRB (four days). It's normally plugged in and charging on the chart table. At sea, it's tested frequently with normal messaging. My EPIRB is in the ditch bag. Hopefully I remember to test it. But, of course, you can't test it too often without running down the battery.

And InReach is not a "US waters" only device - the Delorme blog describes an Inreach initiated rescue off Australia just 30 days ago.

April 2, 2015: A solo sailor from Australia ran aground on a reef 750 miles east of the Australian coast. As the boat was slowly sinking, the Delorme rescue monitoring center communicated with the sailor while a helicopter rescue was underway.

They also note that over 100 InReaches were used in the Nepal earthquake rescue effort. Because the InReach is also used by many more people than offshore sailors, Delorme is presumably handling many more emergencies than any SAR center.

DeLorme inReach - Two-way satellite text messaging, tracking and SOS anywhere in the world

And to say it one more time: I'm not suggesting anyone go to sea without an EPIRB - yet. I still carry an EPIRB as backup. But in a distress situation I would use the InReach first because it allows ongoing two-way communication with SAR so they can launch the right rescue for the situation and I will know what rescue is on the way.

Believe it or not, I don't work for or have any association with Delorme (other than the cap they gave me at a boat show ) And my understanding is that the Yellowbrick may be a good alternative with similiar capabilities.
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Old 16-05-2015, 12:59   #85
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

In our case there is no way EPIRB will be out before there is some better technology.

I think buying new a sat phone from either I or I would be a toss for us.

Any chance EPIRB evolving into something more two way or at least some way of getting a confirm that we got (or not) heard?

b.
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Old 16-05-2015, 13:10   #86
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

To be slightly back on track . . . . So we have a choice of offshore (which here will mean out of vhf and cell range) comms devices. They each have their own pros and cons. Which you choose to carry will simply depend on your priorities.

My take for "best in class" is:

Weather and technical advice (mechanical and medical) = best is sat phone (very distant 2nd is Inreach)
Two way emergency communication = best is sat phone (2nd is Inreach)
Emergency beacon = best is Epirb (tied 2nd sat phone & Inreach)
Tracking = best is Inreach (2nd is sat phone)
Casual sms chat with family = best tie Inreach & sat phone

(Note, yes, I have owned and used all these offshore)

For me personally, the weather and technical advice is the highest priority as it lets me avoid problems and/or solve them myself. So I want the best gear to do that. So my #1 purchases a sat phone (note: hf techs might pick an hf instead but I would not but that is a topic to be debated elsewhere).

Second, if I get into trouble and really really need someone to come find me, I want the very best beacon, and that means the second purchase is an Epirb.

Then if you want the family to have high frequency tracking points, or a backup, I would get the Inreach third.

That's my personal thinking. But I could understand if the budget was tight getting an Inreach first (or only) . . . . But I will comment its capability to give you weather in no way at all compares to a sat phone. . . . Even if you have a friend ashore, even if he is a pro met guy (which he probably is not), he still cannot combine the weather data with your actual conditions nor give you a full sense of the possible scenarios.

And finally, you really need to read the report I posted above if you think the private "rescue" center is comparable to a western official one. They are a for profit organization and do not in any way devote the resources or attention that the wester official ones do (but they are better than official capabilities in Indonesia). Just for instance, their official policy is to stop all activity if the SOS signal terminates, because usually that means it was a false signal and if is a waste of resources to then still chase it down. But the official rescue centers will chase it down until they absolutely know because it could be that the unit was damaged or battery ran out or sunk and people are still in trouble (the exact case in the Aegean incident).

If you have an Epirb and an Inreach, in an emergency you should definitely fire the Epirb first. It will scramble official aTrenton and assets the quickest. Then you can use the Inreach or sat phone to do two way.
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Old 16-05-2015, 13:13   #87
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

Carl,

The more I hear about "InReach" the more I like it as a comms system and not just as an emergency system.

Very interesting to hear it has been used to great effect in the recent disaster in Nepal. This, if nothing else, is proof that the system is robust and can handle a major disaster. I'd be intrigued to know if any of the major emergency teams were using it.

I guess we could liken this discussion to asking "are charts obsolete?". In some ways paper charts are but would you honestly set sail relying just on the chartplotter? As long as the technology still works it is still relevant today regardless of how old it is or how something new does the job "better" or differently.

I'll take this opportunity to thank you for bringing this particular item to our attention. If it saves even one life then it has done good.

Keiron
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Old 16-05-2015, 13:23   #88
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

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Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
To be slightly back on track . . . . So we have a choice of offshore (which here will mean out of vhf and cell range) comms devices. They each have their own pros and cons. Which you choose to carry will simply depend on your priorities.


(Note, yes, I have owned and used all these offshore)



And finally, you really need to read the report I posted above if you think the private "rescue" center is comparable to a western official one. They are a for profit organization and do not in any way devote the resources or attention that the wester official ones do (but they are better than official capabilities in Indonesia). Just for instance, their official policy is to stop all activity if the SOS signal terminates, because usually that means it was a false signal and if is a waste of resources to then still chase it down. But the official rescue centers will chase it down until they absolutely know because it could be that the unit was damaged or battery ran out or sunk and people are still in trouble (the exact case in the Aegean incident).

If you have an Epirb and an Inreach, in an emergency you should definitely fire the Epirb first. It will scramble official assets the quickest. Then you can use the Inreach or sat phone to do two way.
thanks for adding your experience and advice or opinion to this discussion.
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Old 16-05-2015, 15:04   #89
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

Had two friends in Nepal. One died in an avalanche caused by the earthquake, one returned two days ago. Earthquakes of course are still ongoing, so more donations are needed to help.

I had thought that portable solar panels would be the most use, but he said the most useful was hand cranked chargers combined with battery storage and whoever had generators. Oh, and potable water devices, he had one with lithium disposable batteries.

So I would assume that no matter what systems you choose, your jump bag should have a hand cranked power generator.
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Old 16-05-2015, 16:27   #90
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Re: Are EPIRBs dead?

EPIRBS are not dead. Proven technology, have saved many lives. I am keeping mine and will replace it with a new one at end of life.


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