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Old 16-01-2015, 06:35   #331
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
What some of us a saying is that the process of using a CP ALLOWS some to make mistakes or put another way, makes it easier to mess up. In the same way that they make navigation so much easier.

The answer to the problem is education.
Here is where I both agree and disagree. Yes, the process of using a CP may allow some to make mistakes.

However, mistakes have been made by thousands without the use of a CP. Mistakes have been made using sextants, using DR, using range finders, using visual acquisition of navigational markers (I related a personal experience doing such), etc.

All of those tools allow some to make mistakes. Especially less educated people.

I would make the case that CP's actually decrease the mistakes being made. I'm willing to postulate that fewer people are piling up at night on reefs they know exist (and charted around) because they had unexpected current or leeway taking them off course.

I have no statistics for the above, but it is as valid a postulation as is those believing CP's are increasing mistakes and causing reefs to be hit.

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Old 16-01-2015, 06:55   #332
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
Is it possible they were no longer following the process because their electronics gave them comfort where there should have been no comfort?

Does the child plugging numbers into the calculating device understand the answer as well as the child who calculated the answer manually?

Nope.
Here is what we do know about the Vestas electronics:

1. The base electronic vector chart of that area shows the reef as a blue blob surrounded for hundreds of miles of white clear ocean. This is shown when zoomed all the way out so that the entire world is shown on one screen. It is not as high resolution on vector charts as it is on raster, but it is very obvious that something extraordinary is there.

2. Zooming in just a bit so that only the ocean they were in shows on the screen, around that blue blob are depth soundings of 20 meters, while all the depths around that for hundreds of miles are 3,000 meters. (of course, zooming in further shows the entire reef in all its glory, but let's just assume they were zoomed out to only show the entire ocean).

3. Also on the boat is an AIS display showing not only the other boats positions, but their actual tracks. All of the other boats did a very obvious dog-leg around that reef that caused them to take a longer distance than a straight line from point A to point B.

Can any reasonable person be lulled into being "comfortable" with these three basic data? I don't believe so, and don't believe that the electronics were the cause of loss of process.

Your argument on "skipping steps" is a matter of degrees. You are defining it to fit your argument, but it can easily be defined differently.

Do you understand the geospatial, mathematical and electronical aspects of GPS? *Do you think most others do?
For example, do you think most boats have calibrated mechanical compasses and know how to use a deviation card in their DR calculations? Or is having a solid state rate compass provide an accurate bearing another skipped step toward ruin?

This argument can be taken to extremes - it used to be mandatory that a navigator understood the detailed workings of a clock. Not knowing this could put one in peril. That is a certainly a skipped step now for even the most die-hard sextant users.

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Old 16-01-2015, 06:56   #333
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Here is where I both agree and disagree. Yes, the process of using a CP may allow some to make mistakes.

However, mistakes have been made by thousands without the use of a CP. Mistakes have been made using sextants, using DR, using range finders, using visual acquisition of navigational markers (I related a personal experience doing such), etc.

All of those tools allow some to make mistakes. Especially less educated people.

I would make the case that CP's actually decrease the mistakes being made. I'm willing to postulate that fewer people are piling up at night on reefs they know exist (and charted around) because they had unexpected current or leeway taking them off course.

I have no statistics for the above, but it is as valid a postulation as is those believing CP's are increasing mistakes and causing reefs to be hit.

Mark
I think the evidence is there to suggest that the presence of chart plotters can and does influence people's behaviour. It just isn't possible to illustrate the evidence effectively on cruisers forum. Nautical Science is a four year degree program. And that only lands you a third mates job! Much more education is required for a senior position.

However I can use a parallel to illustrate my point. The parallel is texting and driving. When I was a kid, drinking and driving was te big threat to road safety. Phones were safely attached to walls.

The first portable phones I remember we're actually car phones. They were to big too fit in your pocket and were not considered a hazard to road safety.

Then cell phones came along, and it you could start to notice more distracted drivers on the road. Still not a significant hazard.

Then texting happened and being on the road got scarey. Their were more people being killed by drivers impaired by texting than impaired by alcohol. Governments around the world were forced to ban texting and driving in the interest of public safety.

It wasn't the technology causing the accidents. Microwave ovens don't cause traffic accidents. It was the relationship between people and smart phone technology.

What I am saying is chart plotters aren't causing accidents. It's the relationship people have with that particular technology that causes accidents.

You can deny that people have different relationships with different types of technology, but have you ever met somebody with a World of Warcraft addiction? I know I have. But for some reason I've never met somebody with a Xerox addiction. They're both technological items but people can and often do have different relationships with those technologies.

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Old 16-01-2015, 07:04   #334
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Fatigue is a more likely cause of the VW grounding than electronic charts. Hubris is also a candidate. These two affect all of us at one time or another. If our brains were wired correctly we wouldn't be going into cold, vast waters with 3/8 inch of plastic/aluminum/steel between us and drowning.
I have my own personal, non-factual and unsupported, belief on what happened.

This boat was way behind in this race and was getting a favorable wind shift (this is recorded and supported in their words and articles). They saw their competitor's AIS tracks take a dogleg at the same time they were getting a wind shift and saw a chance to ride that shift on a shorter straight route and make ground on the competition. That last part is my personal unsupported belief.

Yes, fatigue and hubris may have helped this decision, but I think it was a basic navigational failure to do basic navigational things.

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Old 16-01-2015, 07:11   #335
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
I think the evidence is there to suggest that the presence of chart plotters can and does influence people's behaviour. It just isn't possible to illustrate the evidence effectively on cruisers forum. Nautical Science is a four year degree program. And that only lands you a third mates job! Much more education is required for a senior position.

However I can use a parallel to illustrate my point. The parallel is texting and driving.
You aren't suggesting that people take all of that navigational training for recreational sailing, are you? Just how much navigational training do you think most people had before chart plotters? I am that old, and in my experience it is pretty much the same amount of training now as it was then.

I don't see your parallel at all. If you had made a parallel of paper road maps vs. electronic GPS maps, then you may have made a case - a direct parallel to what we are discussing on boats. (However, I think more people got lost, and had difficulties with traffic and routes, using paper maps than they do now with electronics).

Texting and driving would be more a parallel of watching a movie while sailing through reefs. Both are problems, but it's non-sensical to make a connection.

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Old 16-01-2015, 07:14   #336
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
But for some reason I've never met somebody with a Xerox addiction.
Let me introduce myself - I used to bury my nose in fresh Xerox copies and inhale deeply. Oh man. Don't get me started on mimeographs…

Laser printing ruined it all.

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Old 16-01-2015, 07:21   #337
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

Mark, I am not suggesting people go to school for 4 years before going sailing. I am saying that this forum doesn't permit me the time to fully explain the relationship between people and technology. I can't do a bridge resource management course on my smart phone.

I was using something called an analogy to try and illustrate my point for the common reader.

I think it's a reasonable analogy- even if you don't.

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Old 16-01-2015, 11:47   #338
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

Before we blame the poor navigators....no, wait, its too late for that isn't it?


Before I got involved with GPS and Google Earth, I thought I was up and cartography naviguessing. And found that a lot of apps were being developed to use the US Census TIGER map data, which wasn't doing too well at ground conformation. Which led me to find out GMaps was sometimes 1/2 mile off (literally) at putting addresses on the map, on NYC streets.


Which eventually led me to a NYC Surveyor's Office, where they were quite familiar with the issue. Old hat to them: NYC's own internal grid system was based on the Dutch New Amsterdam coordinate system, which requires adjustments and offsets of...Right! Sometimes more than 1/2 mile in two directions. Which "everyone" in the city knows, but naviguessers who aren't professionally employed there? Have no reason to suspect.


Come on, who'd think a 1640-ish survey was STILL being used in Gotham? Today?


And you won't find any notes on your USGS topos or the Coast Pilot about that.
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Old 16-01-2015, 13:25   #339
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

[QUOTE=colemj;

For example, I am flabbergasted that Vestas had an AIS tracking system continually showing them the positions and tracks of all the other boats - and showing those boats doing an obvious dog-leg around that reef - while Vestas either ignored the display completely, or didn't realize the significance of those tracks. Why would a competitor take a longer distance route? Did they really think everyone was making a tactical error which only Vestas could see?

Mark[/QUOTE]

Where did you get this from Mark? Has it been reported somewhere?
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Old 16-01-2015, 13:35   #340
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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You aren't suggesting that people take all of that navigational training for recreational sailing, are you? Just how much navigational training do you think most people had before chart plotters? I am that old, and in my experience it is pretty much the same amount of training now as it was then.

I don't see your parallel at all. If you had made a parallel of paper road maps vs. electronic GPS maps, then you may have made a case - a direct parallel to what we are discussing on boats. (However, I think more people got lost, and had difficulties with traffic and routes, using paper maps than they do now with electronics).

Texting and driving would be more a parallel of watching a movie while sailing through reefs. Both are problems, but it's non-sensical to make a connection.

Mark
Mark, I'm getting the impression nothing will convince you to concede anything at all. And when you intentionally use his comment about a four year degree to further the dispute, it is pretty obvious the only intention you have is to further a dispute. Give it a rest!

familyvan, you have proved your point many times over, give it a rest
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Old 16-01-2015, 15:15   #341
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Where did you get this from Mark? Has it been reported somewhere?
Yes, it is part of the standard equipment of all the boats in the race.

This isn't a screenshot from them - I am just using it to illustrate my point about the courses of all the boats.

Mark
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Old 16-01-2015, 15:29   #342
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Mark, I'm getting the impression nothing will convince you to concede anything at all. And when you intentionally use his comment about a four year degree to further the dispute, it is pretty obvious the only intention you have is to further a dispute. Give it a rest!

familyvan, you have proved your point many times over, give it a rest
Sorry, I didn't realize you were in control of this thread.

I am unsure why I need to "concede" anything when I am not convinced otherwise, and can provide rational arguments to support my case. Is this wrong?

I questioned that quote because the poster conflated the concepts of CP influencing people's behaviors because of lack of education with the amount of education he seemed to be implying was necessary - in the same paragraph and construct. I simply asked him if that is what he meant and gave him the opportunity to clarify it.

Likewise, I will stand up for familyvan and assert that he has the right to defend his points to me and address mine.

Feel free to also address any of the arguments and points I bring forth. If you think I should concede, provide some rationale for my arguments being wrong.

Unless I have got this all wrong and you are the controlling master of this thread?

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Old 16-01-2015, 15:31   #343
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Mark, I'm getting the impression nothing will convince you to concede anything at all. And when you intentionally use his comment about a four year degree to further the dispute, it is pretty obvious the only intention you have is to further a dispute. Give it a rest!

familyvan, you have proved your point many times over, give it a rest
Hells Bells RC, this is the interwebby and someone's wrong
It's gotta be sorted and there will be no resting until that happens; unless of course, the big servers melt down.

Meantime, sit back down, buckle up and enjoy the ride
Besides the weather today (and its's high summer) is pretty sad in our part of paradise - had to light the fire before posting
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Old 16-01-2015, 15:40   #344
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Hells Bells RC, this is the interwebby and someone's wrong
It's gotta be sorted and there will be no resting until that happens; unless of course, the big servers melt down.

Meantime, sit back down, buckle up and enjoy the ride
Besides the weather today (and its's high summer) is pretty sad in our part of paradise - had to light the fire before posting


I know, I know, but I saw this thread was still going and I just couldn't help myself (I'm sick).
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Old 17-01-2015, 00:28   #345
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Yes, it is part of the standard equipment of all the boats in the race.

This isn't a screenshot from them - I am just using it to illustrate my point about the courses of all the boats.

Mark
I'm well aware of what AIS is, I have it my self. But I suspect you know that.

"and showing those boats doing an obvious dog-leg around that reef - while Vestas either ignored the display completely, or didn't realize the significance of those tracks. Why would a competitor take a longer distance route? "

WHERE did you get this idea from? That the other vessels were showing obvious dog-legs?
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