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Old 12-01-2015, 16:02   #211
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Old 12-01-2015, 16:08   #212
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

Wow, who are you trying to convince now? Yourself? I've definitely lost all ECS capability at once. ECPINS had been acting up for days and we were running on the back up system- which incidentally had an independent power system. That system then crashed on me (software issue not power failure). I was alone on the bridge with my wheelsman. We were in a narrow channel (about 500 feet) in heavy snow Christmas Eve.
Lucky for me I'd plotted parallel index lines before my ECS crashed, of course I still called the Captain to the bridge to help me with the workload.
We didn't switch over to our cell phones or tablets- you don't really use toys to navigate a 240 foot ice breaker in a blizzard.


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Old 12-01-2015, 16:18   #213
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Wow, who are you trying to convince now? Yourself? I've definitely lost all ECS capability at once. ECPINS had been acting up for days and we were running on the back up system- which incidentally had an independent power system. That system then crashed on me (software issue not power failure). I was alone on the bridge with my wheelsman. We were in a narrow channel (about 500 feet) in heavy snow Christmas Eve.
Lucky for me I'd plotted parallel index lines before my ECS crashed, of course I still called the Captain to the bridge to help me with the workload.
We didn't switch over to our cell phones or tablets- you don't really use toys to navigate a 240 foot ice breaker in a blizzard.


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I neither understand your venom, nor your parallel of a 240 foot ice breaker to small boat cruising. In the latter, tablets are certainly viable backup methods, as are handheld gps's, and the power systems are not as extensive or fragile. A couple of AA batteries suffice, and most have many hours, if not days, to put a backup in place because they are not cutting ice in blizzards in narrow channels.

Is there anything in my previous post that was objectively errant, or arguably incorrect?

All I am doing is providing a balance to the other side of this debate. It seems like you are fine stating opinions and pulling out anecdotes as fact, but anything I post with my reasoning laid out is dismissed with a sneer and an attack?

I'm sure you can do better and rise up a bit, can't you? Go ahead and dissect my post for me - I can take it. I will be most interested in how you address the paper charts of my cruising area, as well as those who have come to grief using them. Can you not think of anyone running aground not using a chart plotter?

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Old 12-01-2015, 16:31   #214
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Hi
there are many reasons why a boat may hit a small island. I would just tell some story about my experiences with electronic charts, GPS and Sat Nav.

1) electronic charts may be vector charts digitalized from paper sources. As with every thing what is not done copy paste where may go parts forgotten ore misreported.
When sailing years ago using c-map for navigation from Fiji to Australia one morning, when looking around with the binoculars I saw something that was looking definitely like waves but something something solid. It was a tiny sandbank with mangroves and small palms. Controlling my chartplotter there should be open sea, on my paper chart I saw a really tiny island. As I was a little lazy the noon before I did'nt marked my noon position as normal in my paper chart. Not in immediate danger but really good luck that I could realize just in time the small bank in front of me. In NZ I heard from other cruisers that this error on c-map is known and that an other guy hit the bank and was salvaged only several days later.
The mentioned error does not exist any more. I have here no chart ready to name the object.

2) The setting for the chart datum was wrong. That may happen, because not all charts are on WGS 87. For instance in the Red Sea you have very accurate electronic charts showing you the coves (called marsas) there you can anchor, often with every detail. But you cannot steer in with GPS and electronic charts as you will not find a corresponding chart datum. The entrances to the marsas are in some cases even some miles away from your GPS Position. The charts are mainly designed using surveys from the Portugese navigators of the 16th century.

3) Charts for New Caledonia are based an a datum you would only have (2010) on a French GPS.

4) On delivery of a boat to from Europe to St. Lucia, after a stop in Barbados I realized during our sail to Martinique that the position of the boat on our Sat Nav was one degree (wrong) to that I had plotted. I'm pretty sure that this error was due to playing with the device by someone of my crew.

Fair winds.
James

Just an FYI explaining Raster Vs Vector Electronic Charts. Note the comment re zooming on Raster.
Raster vs. Vector Nautical Charts - Differences Between Raster and Vector Nautical Charts
Vector charts have been the gold standard and are the basis of modern Chart Plotters and Electronic Navigation programs such as Software on Board.
Introduction to SOB and Computer Navigation
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Old 12-01-2015, 16:39   #215
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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If you want to unsubscribe, this will not do that - contact the mods for instructions.

If you meant to make a point, then - really?

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Old 12-01-2015, 18:48   #216
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

The Venom? I started off with a simple post responding with a technical answer to a technical post. You've quoted me in nearly every post you've made since then and described me as illogical and accused me of making weak arguments and anecdotal responses.
How you navigate is up to you but some people reading this post will want to decide whether- your argument is correct and they should blindly put all their faith in the magical box with a picture of their boat in the middle, or if they should take a more balanced approach, and try to mix in a few conventional navigation techniques for when their ECS fails or is inaccurate or need to navigate their life raft because they made a poor navigational judgement and they managed to sink their boat on a reef the ECS said wasn't their.
How do I draw a parallel between Navigating an Ice Breaker and Navigating a cruising yacht? Well for one thing I do both, so it's pretty easy for me to make the parallel. Many people have asked you what kind of evidence you seek? Technical evidence is irrelevant to you, anecdotes are silly, expertise from professional navigators is illogical.
I've not only Navigated Ice Breakers, but I've commanded numerous different commercial and federal vessels some as small as 60 feet. Do you believe the principles of navigating a 60 foot research ship is significantly different from the principles that apply to yacht navigation?
The answer is simple. Take a balanced approach- use your magnetic to verify the heading marker on your ECDIS.
Plot DR's and compare them against the position on your ECDIS from time to time, if you notice an incongruity- investigate further until you find the cause of the problem.
Compare the depths on your sounder to the depths on electronic charts- look for incongruities.
If you have a RADAR- compare the shape of the shore line to the one shown on the RADAR.
Investigate your landfall through ports guides, sailing directions and by talking to people who have been there before. Get your hands on a picture compare it to what you see.
Your ECS says you are in the middle of the channel. But are you between the red and the green?
You're Electronic Charts and your paper charts say there's no shoal over there, but you hear the distinct sound of breakers. I'd say that's definitely worth investigating. Wouldn't you?
Please explain to the other readers what's illogical about my approach to navigation.
I have never once argued against the use of electronic charts. I have simply encouraged the use of multiple navigational aids because relying on one device that is known (by most of us) to have inherent inaccuracies and flaws is unwise.
You realise the GPS satellite network is controlled by the US government? You realise they can simply switch it off? And if they had a viable threat of an attack on US soil using GPS guided devices they wouldn't hesitate to turn off the GPS network to prevent such an attack?
What if you're surfing your Cat between a couple of reefs at the exact moment they switch off the signal? Wouldn't it be nice to be in the habit of cross referencing your position with alternative methods right then? You referenced how inaccurate the LORAN C was in an earlier post- well they're even less accurate now, since the US and Canadian governments switched off the DF antennas?
You may make a choice, to use simple navigation techniques and avoid challenging situations- and that's fine, it's another way to keep the risk down. Some people on here will no doubt be navigating in very challenging situations and will navigate with all the prudence of a professional because they need the cards stacked in their favour.
This will be the last time I respond to your Chart Plotters are the only thing worth having philosophy. Your stubborn refusal to see the truth here is an unconquerable task.
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Old 12-01-2015, 19:56   #217
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

To me the Beauty of sailing isn't in just what we experience in the sea but the the decisions we make.

Sometimes they are not what others may decide but they are what we will live or die by.

It is truly Freedom of The Sea




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Old 13-01-2015, 02:54   #218
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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The people complaining about the "newfangled electronic charts" are the same ones who complained when people started driving cars instead of horses.

I'm not sure if there is much evidence around to support this claim; in fact I daresay there is none however I would be happy to read it if you wish to present it. By the way, I have two horses, two cars, a GPS and paper charts but I would like to have a chartplotter as well.


My chart plotter has never led me into trouble but I'm sure I would have found trouble without it.
Then I guess this thread is not about you, rather it is about those whose sole reliance on their chartplotter has got them into strife. They are clearly not as smart as you. The function of the plotter remains the same but the effect it has on the operator is different. I'm not sure some of the posters here understand the difference
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Old 13-01-2015, 03:36   #219
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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. The function of the plotter remains the same but the effect it has on the operator is different. I'm not sure some of the posters here understand the difference
Amen brother +1
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Old 13-01-2015, 04:42   #220
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

Personally think this has been an interesting thread especially the different points of view for and against and the more balanced views advocating more options.
However and I dont think it has been mentioned yet there are thousands probably tens of thousands of people on the water today in all sorts of craft that even if they had a paper chart would have no clue how to work out where on that chart they actually were . Even with their recognised shortcomings those people would be safer to themselves and others when using a plotter,I thing ,tablet, phone ,handheld GPS whatever.You are never going to train those people to use paper.
Right or wrong this situation will only increase as the current generations get on the water and the boating population increases.
Chris
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Old 13-01-2015, 05:35   #221
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Personally think this has been an interesting thread especially the different points of view for and against and the more balanced views advocating more options.
However and I dont think it has been mentioned yet there are thousands probably tens of thousands of people on the water today in all sorts of craft that even if they had a paper chart would have no clue how to work out where on that chart they actually were . Even with their recognised shortcomings those people would be safer to themselves and others when using a plotter,I thing ,tablet, phone ,handheld GPS whatever.You are never going to train those people to use paper.
Right or wrong this situation will only increase as the current generations get on the water and the boating population increases.
Chris
You're probably right about many people not being able to plot a position. I have a friend with a 38' sailboat, full time live aboard for years, and is still working on his fundamental navigation skills, but he is working on them.

The thought of somebody crossing seas and oceans without having taken some navigation courses gives me the willies- clearly it happens though.

Having said that I believe a balanced approach could still be used. That's the beautiful thing about the ColRegs Rule 5. The common interpretation is that you navigate with all means at your disposal. Therefore if you can't tell the title block from a sounding on your chart- or you don't have one on board, it really isn't at your disposal.

Very few of these $1/2 million dollar yachts sailing around with untrained navigators are equipped with ONLY a Chartplotter. I would hazard to guess the lowly depth sounder and magnetic compass are far more common than Chartplotters. For flash yachts out there RADARs are almost always equipped. Its part of the status symbol.

So even if their balanced approach doesn't include the use of paper charts, they can still use their sounder, eyes, ears, monitor traffic on their VHF, play with their RADAR and see if they can get some useful information from that. I guess look at their position on their cell, but I would never encourage somebody to navigate with cheap disposable items like cells and tablets. Google images of their destination before hand etc.

I really can't see why, even if you lack basic navigation skill you can't take a prudent and procedural approach to navigation.

I would also encourage people to stay well within the reach of their local Search and Rescue station until they have accumulated the skills appropriate to their endeavour.

My argument isn't for or against paper or electronic charts. I might even buy myself an electronic chart one day. My argument is for the process you use. The checks and balances that you should have in place for your own safety.

Certainly if someone lacks basic navigation skills, it's irresponsible of them to go on the internet and start telling an unknown audience that you don't need to be prudent when navigating a 20 000 lb status symbol across oceans.

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Old 13-01-2015, 05:35   #222
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Originally Posted by Mirage Gecko View Post
Personally think this has been an interesting thread especially the different points of view for and against and the more balanced views advocating more options.
However and I dont think it has been mentioned yet there are thousands probably tens of thousands of people on the water today in all sorts of craft that even if they had a paper chart would have no clue how to work out where on that chart they actually were . Even with their recognised shortcomings those people would be safer to themselves and others when using a plotter,I thing ,tablet, phone ,handheld GPS whatever.You are never going to train those people to use paper.
Right or wrong this situation will only increase as the current generations get on the water and the boating population increases.
Chris
I'll make one final comment in this thread.
An experienced skipper will be a better and safer skipper by using professional electronic charts and associated plotter/computer software as their primary navigation tool instead of paper charts and manual plotting as their primary navigation tool.
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Old 13-01-2015, 05:48   #223
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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I'll make one final comment in this thread.
An experienced skipper will be a better and safer skipper by using professional electronic charts and associated plotter/computer software as their primary navigation tool instead of paper charts and manual plotting as their primary navigation tool.
Doubly so for an inexperienced one...
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Old 13-01-2015, 05:53   #224
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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I'll make one final comment in this thread.
An experienced skipper will be a better and safer skipper by using professional electronic charts and associated plotter/computer software as their primary navigation tool instead of paper charts and manual plotting as their primary navigation tool.
The only advantages of electronic Chartplotter to an experienced navigator is that the computer does the calculations for the navigator and in real time. This "experienced skipper" should still have a general understanding of how the GPS triangulates their position- if they are to interpret the data correctly.

The time saved by the ECS, shouldn't be used to go take selfies. It should be used to verify the proper functioning of the vessel systems. The only way to verify the proper function of an electronic charting system, is by using other means.

So if you were truly talking about the safest mosteoporosis prudent methodology, you would not be excluding the use of other tools.

There are two things going on here. There are the fundamentals of navigation- they apply regardless of the tools at you disposal.

Then there are the tools at your disposal. You use all the tools in your tool box.

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Old 13-01-2015, 06:10   #225
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Originally Posted by Mirage Gecko View Post
Personally think this has been an interesting thread especially the different points of view for and against and the more balanced views advocating more options.
However and I dont think it has been mentioned yet there are thousands probably tens of thousands of people on the water today in all sorts of craft that even if they had a paper chart would have no clue how to work out where on that chart they actually were . Even with their recognised shortcomings those people would be safer to themselves and others when using a plotter,I thing ,tablet, phone ,handheld GPS whatever.You are never going to train those people to use paper.
Right or wrong this situation will only increase as the current generations get on the water and the boating population increases.
Chris
This is pretty much what I have been trying to say.

A chart plotter does not MAKE people do things. That is confusing correlation with causation. Many posters here want to perceive a relationship between the two because it fits their worldview and biases.

However, it is literally a logical fallacy, not to mention a cherry-picked data set (another argumentative logical fallacy). Nobody addresses the full data set of people getting into trouble without chartplotters. Even very experienced navigators. While ignoring that chartplotters may have saved some of these - for example, misjudging a current or leeway set is almost impossible on a chartplotter compared to DR.

Then there is the strawman fallacy that has been put forth that I am not only advocating sole use of chartplotters, but eschewing all other navigational tools like compasses and depth sounders, etc. This has been such a stupid argument that I have ignored it. I don't know of a single cruiser who has a chartplotter but no compass, depth sounder, knotmeter, etc.

Finally, the anecdotal fallacy of using individual personal experience or isolated examples as representative of full data sets instead of exemplars to a point, as I attempted with my personal LORAN story above.

My only real argument has been that if planned properly, paper charts are unnecessary today. As for losing electrical, many here couldn't find their rear with both hands if their GPS went down, so a paper chart would not be much use. Even those with sextants would probably get into trouble without a calculator and electric timepiece - even if they had maintained practiced skills with the sextant itself.

I have engaged on this thread in an attempt to put the above in perspective. Strangely, this perspective enrages some here.

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