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Old 10-01-2015, 15:43   #166
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Believe it or not.. You are part of the solution.
Did you get forced into therapy again?

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Old 10-01-2015, 15:47   #167
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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That is all just basic navigation and has nothing to do with chartplotters specifically. It applies without a chartplotter on board, as well as with one. If you substitute "ECS" with "compass" or "sextant" or "depth sounder" or anything else in your above post, it would mean the same thing.

But you have already blamed chart plotters for causing problems - both in the context of the title incident (with absolutely zero evidence yet) and in general.

They do not cause problems, or force people to do things they otherwise would not. They are a tool that can be used, abused, misused or not used - just like everything else.

That is such basic logic that I can't believe it needs to be explained to a high school graduate.

BTW, not every navigator possesses 5 senses, but this is a trifling, unless you think they should be banned…

Mark
Perfect then. Basic traditional navigation techniques are the solution to the ECS problem! I knew you'd come around!
Neither ECS nor astrolabs should be used in place of the fundaments!
I knew you had it in you to grasp this simple concept


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Old 10-01-2015, 15:55   #168
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Perfect then. Basic traditional navigation techniques are the solution to the ECS problem! I knew you'd come around!
Neither ECS nor astrolabs should be used in place of the fundaments!
I knew you had it in you to grasp this simple concept
Now if I could only convince you to stop blaming ECS for problems.

Mark
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Old 10-01-2015, 16:24   #169
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

Arguing that ECS is not a fundamental tool of navigation will drive people away from otherwise well intentioned logic. ECS is definitely a fundamental tool and is the primary method of determining position when out of site of land. It can also give accurate course and velocity over ground. GPS is more accurate and reliable than sextants, patent logs and one handed clocks. But it works best in concert with a functioning brain, visual watchkeeping, AIS and radar.
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Old 10-01-2015, 16:33   #170
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Did you get forced into therapy again?

Mark
naah. I just upped his meds and charged him double...
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Old 10-01-2015, 16:42   #171
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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My only problem with these debates, which keeps me hammering on this point, is the strange assumption being made that the mere presence of a chart plotter turns people into zombies and causes them to get into trouble.

I don't see how that is possible. Even without wearing a protective tinfoil hat.

I do agree that tools can be misused, people can make mistakes, and people can be down-right stupid. But I don't see how chart plotters CAUSE this to happen.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this, but I believe that on occasion, reliance upon a chartplotter has very likely Emboldened a skipper to attempt something he otherwise would not have tried were it not for the ability to play the video game of simply keeping the boat icon on the magenta route line, or equivalent...

I've always thought the RULE 62 tragedy during the Caribbean 1500 a few years back represents an example of this... We'll never know, and of course I have no way of ever 'proving' that was the case... My gut simply tells me that there is no way that guy would have attempted to enter that unmarked/unlit Bahamian cut at night, during a rage, without a chartplotter... I could be wrong, of course - and we can debate the fine distinction between whether the technology merely 'Enabled' that extraordinary absence of seamanship, or actually 'Caused' it... But it's certainly my hunch that he never would have attempted to make that entrance, in those conditions, had he not had a chartplotter to 'guide him in..."

As always, I could be wrong... :-)


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Old 10-01-2015, 17:02   #172
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pirate Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

ADVANTAGE.....!!

Jon...

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Old 10-01-2015, 17:17   #173
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

I would argue ECS is a popular and effective tool but by no means a fundamental.
Although most cruising yachts and modern commercial vessels are equipped with them- so many craft simply don't have them, need them or use them that they could only be considered a tool.
Fundamentals are the important concepts that guide prudent navigation which remain unchanged.
An ECS is like a modern day astrolab, useful for as long as its useful, then replaced by the next best technology.

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Old 10-01-2015, 18:03   #174
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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How've you been, Frank? Where do you have your boat now?
Gday Jon, doing OK. Boat and I both in NZ... boat in re-hab.... should be out of shed next month with rig and keel back on....back to Chile Jan next year...

Not sure if mine is a 'production boat' or not but I do know that old is old regardless of who built it....

I'm currently 100% over budget... thats the keel on the left..

How'sit with you?

Cheers,
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Old 11-01-2015, 03:05   #175
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Now if I could only convince you to stop blaming ECS for problems.

Mark
Mark

I don't think anyone here is blaming GPS/chartplotters etc for being the root cause of problems. As I noted earlier - I thnk chartplotters are wonderful, amongst other things they have enabled a good many persons to go sailing that otherwise would not have done so, since they do make navigation much, much easier (the old days of sextants and DR did require a lot of study and effort).

Most of us are arguing that reliance on ONLY the chartplotter can get you into trouble.

I'm gulity of it too. Lat summer we hit a rock while sailing through the swedish Skærgaard, a huge area of islands and rocks. We were in the channel marked on the charts (yes also on the paper charts), and our plotter showed us as being there. Nonetheless we struck.
Why?

I'm not sure. I don't think the chart was wrong (this was a well travel area of the skærgaard), although in those island you can't be sure of anything. I suspect that it was a mixture of the a slight abberation on the part of the chart and the GPS being off by perhaps a couple of meters

Our keel is 2.1 meters and the supposed depth here was 3 meters. Fortunately, we were only going about 2 knots, so with the exception of a real scare and a tennis ball size indentation in our lead keel, there was no real damage(well - the skippers pride took a beating too)

This was an instance where nothing could have saved us. The depth meter shoed 3.1 meter seconds before we struck. Radar etc would have shown nothing and the Mark 1 Eyeball also looked good.
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Old 11-01-2015, 06:22   #176
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

colemj, I haven't read this whole thread, such would be a monumental waste of time as evidenced by what I saw in skimming 1.5pgs. And in so skimming said volume of text, I can't help but to state that you defend these electronic gadgets like smackdaddy did/does of Hunters. AKA it gets to the point of being well beyond foolish.
'Nuf said.
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Old 11-01-2015, 11:42   #177
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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colemj, ?..
'Nuf said.

"'Nuf said"??? Really? But you have said nothing! All you have done is slag someones opinions but without producing any evidence, any discussion points, or any intelligent dialogue. And "'nuf said" ain't nothing to intellectual discourse.



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Old 11-01-2015, 11:55   #178
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

Back in the 80s, In the yachmaster theory at Fleetwood nautical college, we learned how to plot a course manually about 5 different ways. The tutor, ex merchant navy skipper said that we would be best served to ALWAYS plot a course manually and use it as the backbone of sailing long distances.

I think most of us use electronics. I use chart plotter and gps and the maps they use in areas I know well simply because time has familiarized me with the chart editions and changed which I have religiously made note of.

If I go out of my comfort zone, I update from all sources and ask on here or locally and STILL plot on my map and use the electronics in conjunction with it.

I did however manage to scrape the bottom in one place because I didnt get enough information to add to my knowledge...... my previous info was 3 years old

We are best served with up to date information REGARDLESS of what method we use, and I still take dead reckonings and depth soundings if land is in sight. Not so good with the celestial stuff.
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Old 11-01-2015, 11:55   #179
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pirate Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

Intellectual's running a distant 3rd in a 2 horse race with this thread...
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Old 11-01-2015, 12:46   #180
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Re: Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
I don't think anyone here is blaming GPS/chartplotters etc for being the root cause of problems.


OK.

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Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg View Post
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this, but I believe that on occasion, reliance upon a chartplotter has very likely Emboldened a skipper to attempt something he otherwise would not have tried were it not for the ability to play the video game of simply keeping the boat icon on the magenta route line, or equivalent…
.
.. We'll never know, and of course I have no way of ever 'proving' that was the case...
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Then there's the false sense of security that comes with Chartplotters.
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The fact that a chart plotter can give the illusion of complete situational awareness can and often does lead to poor decision making in the hands of inexperienced operators.
Because they can create the illusion of full situational awareness inexperienced operators take risks they simply would have been too scared to take if they didn't have the technology on board.
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With the limited information I can assume what occurred was an ECS assisted allision.
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Originally Posted by Group9 View Post
But, I worry about people who never navigated the old fashioned way, who updated their paper charts from the Notice to Mariners, who don't really understand the technology involved with CP's.
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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
I think the problem exists because it has become too easy get out on the water and start heading off into the "unknown". The GPS and the electronic chart is very seductive to the unwary.
And last, but not least:

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It has been noted that chartplotters allow the unwary to go further to sea. I beive this to be a truism. Before plotters became everymans toy, going to sea (or sailing at all) required having a knowledge of charts, ow to read them and how to interpert them. Acquiring this knowledge meant becoming aware of what was shown on the chart.

With the advent of plotters, this knowledge is no longer needed, indeed many have no idea of to truly read the chart (or the chart on the plotter). This makes for inherently unsafe sailing.
Mark
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