Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

[FamilyVan]

Originally Posted by colemj

Triangulation on landmarks works even better with electronic charts because you can easily draw and move bearing lines.

I suspect if you took your GPS position and transferred it to a paper chart, you would have the same relative fix as the electronic, no?

It is as easy to not run one's boat 1km inland using electronic charts as it is with paper charts, isn't it?

One can use local knowledge, depth, past experience, et al with electronic charts as with paper, can't they?

Understand that I am not questioning your experience or knowledge, just that you seem to be making remarks about electronic charting/charts that are no different than with manual charting/charts.

If you need to impugn electronics, you need to do much better.

Mark

Well, not really. I agree a RADAR is top notch for triangulation. But if I was using a paper chart I would start with a rough Dr, triangulate using a compas or sextant (okay, I'm too lazy for sextants) or something, put a position on the chart then verify the position with my GPS and sounder.
Conversely with a chartplotter, the tendency is to believe the information it gives you without further verification. Used properly they're useful tools. Used improperly, they can put you on an island or reef in the dark, that you would have stood offshore from until daylight had you not had a plotter.

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[colemj]

Originally Posted by FamilyVan

But if I was using a paper chart I would start with a rough Dr, triangulate using a compas or sextant (okay, I'm too lazy for sextants) or something, put a position on the chart

As is easily done with an electronic chart too.

Conversely with a chartplotter, the tendency is to believe the information it gives you without further verification. Used properly they're useful tools. Used improperly, they can put you on an island or reef in the dark, that you would have stood offshore from until daylight had you not had a plotter.

You make a lot of assumptions about people with chartplotters. How is anything you said different with paper charts? Those can be used "improperly" and put you on an island or reef in the dark too. This line of reasoning doesn't make any logical sense unless one assumes that the mere presence of a chartplotter turns people into slobbering idiots.

In fact, I bet more people have gone aground using paper charts than have using electronic ones.

Used improperly, your sextant and compass can lead you to grief. So can your engine, your wife, and everything else on your boat.

Do you see the logical fallacy?

Mark

[FamilyVan]

Originally Posted by colemj

You make a lot of assumptions about people with chartplotters. How is anything you said different with paper charts? Those can be used "improperly" and put you on an island or reef in the dark too. This line of reasoning doesn't make any logical sense unless one assumes that the mere presence of a chartplotter turns people into slobbering idiots.

In fact, I bet more people have gone aground using paper charts than have using electronic ones.

Used improperly, your sextant and compass can lead you to grief. So can your engine, your wife, and everything else on your boat.

Do you see the logical fallacy?

Mark

No, I do not see the fallacy. The fact that a chart plotter can give the illusion of complete situational awareness can and often does lead to poor decision making in the hands of inexperienced operators.
Because they can create the illusion of full situational awareness inexperienced operators take risks they simply would have been too scared to take if they didn't have the technology on board.
I'm not saying chart plotter technology is bad technology. I use them daily, however, I use them as an additional verification method, not as a primary navigational tool.
My go to tool is always my eyes and some form of sailing direction or description of my destination.
The technology only becomes dangerous when improperly used, which some people will do and some will not.
The technology is more likely to be misused by inexperienced operators because of its apparent ease of use and accessibility.
I have been in narrow passages where my (high end) chart plotter puts me well inland. However my eyes tell me I'm safely mid channel. If I was making the same passage in low visibility with a chart plotter- I would be aground.

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[FamilyVan]

Although information is spotty the OP seems to suggest that somebody sailed into an island in the dark. Had it been daylight and had the navigator been looking out the window, I find it hard to believe he would have sailed into an island.
With the limited information I can assume what occurred was an ECS assisted allision. Not the first and not the last.
If you don't believe in the existence of electronics assisted collisions- well, then you should maybe search the interweb for details on the Andrea Dorea. It was kind of an important trend setting incident that still impacts electronic navigation 50 years later.

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[colemj]

Originally Posted by FamilyVan

No, I do not see the fallacy. The fact that a chart plotter can give the illusion of complete situational awareness can and often does lead to poor decision making in the hands of inexperienced operators.
Because they can create the illusion of full situational awareness inexperienced operators take risks they simply would have been too scared to take if they didn't have the technology on board.
I'm not saying chart plotter technology is bad technology. I use them daily, however, I use them as an additional verification method, not as a primary navigational tool.
My go to tool is always my eyes and some form of sailing direction or description of my destination.
The technology only becomes dangerous when improperly used, which some people will do and some will not.
The technology is more likely to be misused by inexperienced operators because of its apparent ease of use and accessibility.
I have been in narrow passages where my (high end) chart plotter puts me well inland. However my eyes tell me I'm safely mid channel. If I was making the same passage in low visibility with a chart plotter- I would be aground.

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This all simply proves the point of my previous post. And provides some illogical statements to boot.

For example, if you were in a narrow passage in low visibility without a chartplotter, would you go aground? Would an inexperienced person without a chartplotter go aground?

If not, please explain how the magical appearance of a chartplotter causes anyone to go aground in this situation, where it would be completely avoided without one.

On the other hand, forget it - I don't want to waste any more time pointing out logical flaws in "chartplotters cause people to do bad things" arguments.

Mark

[colemj]

[QUOTE=FamilyVan;1720313
With the limited information I can assume what occurred was an ECS assisted allision. Not the first and not the last.[/QUOTE]

That limited information includes not knowing if there even was a chartplotter on board, or if it was in use if so.

But that isn't going to stop you from assigning blame to it.

BTW, google "shipwreck" and you will find literally hundreds of examples of people coming to grief without a chart plotter. People who probably would have been safe if they did have one.

You cannot make the case in one direction without recognizing that it works in the other also.

Mark

[FamilyVan]

Rule 5. Look out. Shall use all available means.
That means if you have a magnetic compas, and you know how to plot a Dr, but you are not because you are relying solely on your ecs. You are navigating wrong. Not my opinion- international law.

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[colemj]

Originally Posted by FamilyVan

Rule 5. Look out. Shall use all available means.
That means if you have a magnetic compas, and you know how to plot a Dr, but you are not because you are relying solely on your ecs. You are navigating wrong. Not my opinion- international law.

And if you don't have a chartplotter and don't plot a DR? And if you have a chartplotter, but don't use it - only plotting a DR instead?

Again, logic is avoiding you here, and you are drawing parallels and conclusions that cannot be made - in addition to seeing inherent evils where they do not exist.

Mark

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by colemj

Triangulation on landmarks works even better with electronic charts because you can easily draw and move bearing lines.

I suspect if you took your GPS position and transferred it to a paper chart, you would have the same relative fix as the electronic, no?

It is as easy to not run one's boat 1km inland using electronic charts as it is with paper charts, isn't it?

One can use local knowledge, depth, past experience, et al with electronic charts as with paper, can't they?

Understand that I am not questioning your experience or knowledge, just that you seem to be making remarks about electronic charting/charts that are no different than with manual charting/charts.

If you need to impugn electronics, you need to do much better.

Mark

Whats got up your butt...?
I've not impugned CP's.. merely pointed out that like most things in this world they can be subject to error..
And I use my eyeball inside 3 miles with occasional reference to the GPS position.. they've clashed a few times in my past so my faith is not as yours... but they have their uses..
Go sail awhile and chill out..

[FamilyVan]

Originally Posted by colemj

And if you don't have a chartplotter and don't plot a DR? And if you have a chartplotter, but don't use it - only plotting a DR instead?

Again, logic is avoiding you here, and you are drawing parallels and conclusions that cannot be made - in addition to seeing inherent evils where they do not exist.

Mark

I use my equipped GPS and DR. I don't have a an ecs equipped therefore it's not available? Do you have a basic understanding of the colregs?
I use Chartplotters, just not on my own sailboat. If one were equipped I'd use it, but only to verify what my Dr and other equipment is telling me. I didn't say they were evil. I said relying solely on an ecs- gets your boat wrecked. If you can't follow that logic- good luck keeping your bottom wet.

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[Group9]

I think most of us have chartplotters. I have two on my boat, and they are a wonderful navigation tool.

But, I worry about people who never navigated the old fashioned way, who updated their paper charts from the Notice to Mariners, who don't really understand the technology involved with CP's.

A good example is an earlier post by someone thinking you could wave to Google Earth satellites and see yourself on an overlay doing it. Many Google Earth pictures are several years old but I constantly hear people talking about them like they are real time imagery.

Right now where I live, there is an entire marina, jutting out into the bay, with steel bulkhead walls, that according to Google Earth, doesn't exist, and probably isn't on many chartplotters datum, either.

Luckily, it's lit up pretty good. But, there are also two man-made fishing reefs in the area, that are barely lit, and aren't on either one either.

Chartplotters are pretty cool. Probably the single coolest, and most useful, navigation invention I have ever seen. But, not understanding how they work, and their limitations, is a recipe for disaster sooner or later.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Group9

A good example is an earlier post by someone thinking you could wave to Google Earth satellites and see yourself on an overlay doing it. Many Google Earth pictures are several years old but I constantly hear people talking about them like they are real time imagery.

That was me, and you obviously don't understand humor.

Yes, those pictures can be several years old - as compared to chart features that can be several centuries old. How many land masses have moved in a year or two?

If you need an accurate picture of your marina, you have navigational issues.

Again, every single argument presented on this thread has been made in history with regard to every single improvement in boating. Roller furlers, Loran, GPS, depth sounders, reliable diesels, reversing gear transmissions, etc.

Do you worry about people going to sea that have no idea how to use a sextant? Did you worry about people using sextants who did not have the solid intellectual foundations of the mathematics behind their use?

Chart plotters do not make people do stupid things - people have been doing stupid things since people have existed. And even doing them without chart plotters.

Because someone may misuse a tool, does not impugn that tool.

But let's say all of what you and boatman and familyvan are worried about is true. Please feel free to suggest a solution. Outlaw them? Require licensing? Require courses and testing?

Really, what do you guys suggest?

Mark

[Group9]

Originally Posted by colemj

That was me, and you obviously don't understand humor.

Yes, those pictures can be several years old - as compared to chart features that can be several centuries old. How many land masses have moved in a year or two?

If you need an accurate picture of your marina, you have navigational issues.

Again, every single argument presented on this thread has been made in history with regard to every single improvement in boating. Roller furlers, Loran, GPS, depth sounders, reliable diesels, reversing gear transmissions, etc.

Do you worry about people going to sea that have no idea how to use a sextant? Did you worry about people using sextants who did not have the solid intellectual foundations of the mathematics behind their use?

Chart plotters do not make people do stupid things - people have been doing stupid things since people have existed. And even doing them without chart plotters.

Because someone may misuse a tool, does not impugn that tool.

But let's say all of what you and boatman and familyvan are worried about is true. Please feel free to suggest a solution. Outlaw them? Require licensing? Require courses and testing?

Really, what do you guys suggest?

Mark

I think you have amply demonstrated to me why I would never have enough patience to be a teacher.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Group9

I think you have amply demonstrated to me why I would never have enough patience to be a teacher.

Yes, I have had those types of teachers who demanded one simply accept what they say as truth and would not engage in logic and reasoning outside their narrowly accepted and defended belief system.

Mark

[Group9]

Originally Posted by colemj

Yes, I have had those types of teachers who demanded one simply accept what they say as truth and would not engage in logic and reasoning outside their narrowly accepted and defended belief system.

Mark

You just remind me of the guy, at seminars, who argues with the teacher and other students constantly, while everyone else, is just wanting to hear what the teacher has to say.

Sorry. I don't know what you are looking for in this discussion, but it doesn't appear to me that you are going to get it.

As for me, I recognize the point where the horse has been beat to death.



(You don't know how long I have been waiting for the appropriate thread to use this).