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Old 04-09-2016, 08:47   #211
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Re: AIS, Receiver or Transmitter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
...But don't universalize this experience to cover the rest of the world's oceans -- come sail with me in the English Channel just one weekend, and it will be very obvious to you, what I'm talking about.
Yes, I think that's what I'm saying as well (in addition to simply asking for the evidence). So we agree .
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Old 04-09-2016, 09:15   #212
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Re: AIS, Receiver or Transmitter

Despite COLEGS and so forth... the waters seem to be a very chaotic place. I see boats simply moving as their skipper wants... as if every other boat around needs to steer clear. I don't even heat a hail on 09 telling me get out of my way I am coming.

I see many boats without watch and I rarely see skippers in boats even look after or to the side...

It's a pretty chaotic world out there especially at choke points... entry buoys and channels and so forth a place that many guys seems to love to fish and drift about.

I see MOST powered yachts plowing through channels well above the posted speed limit of 5 knots or no wake zone.

All of this is SELFISH F*CK YOU behavior and it's not going to change with AIS.. or BIS or CIS....

A large vessel 10 miles away is no threat... if you are on a collision coarse with it... change YOUR course. Same thing with a boat .5 miles away. AVOID situations where someone can lose an eye. Swallow your pride you will not die.

Safest assumption is no one is keeping proper watch on other vessels, visual, radar, AIS, radio... Think of them as floating debris... if you can get out of the way.
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Old 04-09-2016, 09:23   #213
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Re: AIS, Receiver or Transmitter

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
http://www.worldshipping.org/industr...eview-2015.pdf

Look at the Table on page 10 which shows the annual ship losses by cause. There has been nearly a ten-fold drop in collision losses since 2005 when AIS was made mandatory for ships.
OK... now we're getting somewhere. Thanks.

The chart shows a clear trend starting in 2005. Does the trend predate that point? Can't say... If it starts at 2005 that is a good indication of a positive impact. The report makes no claim regarding the value of AIS.

Their are exactly two reference to AIS in this report. The first is under the heading "Overreliance on electronic navigation". The second, under the heading "Major cyber attack on the horizon..."

The first references an incident report where the foundering ship:

...had not kept a proper lookout...relied solely on AIS (Automatic Identification System) information displayed on the ECDIS (Electronic Chart Display and Information System) as an aid to collision avoidance... was alone on the bridge... did not monitor the radar and the bridge navigational watch alarm system was switched off."

In the second AIS is described as a potential weakness:

"Of particular concern is the threat to navigation via key technologies such as the Electronic Chart Display and Information System (ECDIS), says Klimczak. GPS (Global Positioning System) and AIS (Automatic Identification System) have also been identified as being potentially vulnerable to attack."

Of course, what we are talking about is the value of AIS to recreational boats. Looking at the publicly available USCG data, and zeroing in on collisions from 2005 to 2015, there shows almost no change in the number of reported collisions over those years. And this despite the number of boat owners actually decreasing due to the 2008/09 crash.

Anyone else have some data to contribute? Maybe the answer is out there ... I hope.
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Old 04-09-2016, 09:31   #214
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Re: AIS, Receiver or Transmitter

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
http://www.worldshipping.org/industr...eview-2015.pdf

Look at the Table on page 10 which shows the annual ship losses by cause. There has been nearly a ten-fold drop in collision losses since 2005 when AIS was made mandatory for ships.

Excellent!

OK, Mike have you read the report? Did you see Page 10??????

Mike?

MIKE???


Here, I'll make it easier.... Its OK, you don't have to read it, but everyone else will so they know the FACTS
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Old 04-09-2016, 09:39   #215
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Re: AIS, Receiver or Transmitter

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Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
If you play around shipping, you have the money and you are upgrading your electronics, there is only correct answer.

Anything else you are fooling yourself and putting your and your crews life more at risk than need be.

I also think that having an AIS transponder should be now considered a common courtesy that small boat owners should extend to commercial shipping. Let them see you 10+ miles out and make a course change then rather than them only spotting you at 1 mile (at night assuming your <12m yacht only meets the minimum requirements of Colregs rule 22).

I'm sure the watch keeper will be more appreciative of you when he sees you because he knows where to look rather than as a surprise resulting in an urgent course correction.
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Old 04-09-2016, 09:49   #216
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Re: AIS, Receiver or Transmitter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandero View Post
Despite COLEGS and so forth... the waters seem to be a very chaotic place. I see boats simply moving as their skipper wants... as if every other boat around needs to steer clear. I don't even heat a hail on 09 telling me get out of my way I am coming.

In some places this is very true. In my experience the chaos is much more common in recreational boats than commercial shipping.

I see many boats without watch and I rarely see skippers in boats even look after or to the side...

Have had to avoid collisions twice in the open ocean with boats that had no one on watch. Once several hundred miles from the nearest land.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandero View Post
I see MOST powered yachts plowing through channels well above the posted speed limit of 5 knots or no wake zone.
I see a lot but not even close to most. Maybe the no wake zones in Florida the limits are more strictly enforced.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandero View Post
Safest assumption is no one is keeping proper watch on other vessels, visual, radar, AIS, radio... Think of them as floating debris... if you can get out of the way.
I never assume the other guy is watching. Learned that riding a motorcycle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandero View Post
A large vessel 10 miles away is no threat... if you are on a collision coarse with it... change YOUR course. Same thing with a boat .5 miles away. AVOID situations where someone can lose an eye. Swallow your pride you will not die.
No threat at that distance or in my opinion much closer than that. However I wouldn't just change course without regard to the situation. Those with AIS frequently seen commercial vessels altering course up to 10 miles away. If you are the stand on vessel then stand on and only alter course when there is a risk of collision and it's clear the give way vessel has not done so.
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Old 04-09-2016, 10:04   #217
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Re: AIS, Receiver or Transmitter

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Yes, I think that's what I'm saying as well (in addition to simply asking for the evidence). So we agree .
Of course


And that was a real, not a rhetorical invitation. The autumn is a nice time for an oyster cruise to St. Vaast or just a wine run to Cherbourg. Often a beam reach in an F6 or F7 (in the prevailing W wind).
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Old 04-09-2016, 10:08   #218
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Re: AIS, Receiver or Transmitter

For those in this thread that are arguing that there is little or no documented benefit to and AIS transmitter on a cruiser, just in case there is some benefit, why not use a transmitter...... just in case?

So far the only downsides I recall:

- Cost. An extra $200-$300-$400 for someone on a boat that cost 100 or even 1000 times that much cost seems like an excuse and not a reason.

- Power. Unless you're on a boat with an incredibly small DC system the figures published on this thread indicate the power usage for a transceiver vs a receive is only slightly higher so this doesn't seem to be a significant barrier.

- Space. Doesn't seem to be an issue.

- Privacy/Security.

If security is a concern, if you're in pirate territory turn off the transmit.

If privacy is a concern, why? Worried the local burglary ring will check out where you are and break in to the house while you're gone? Worried that big brother is watching? Hiding from someone? Left your tinfoil hat at home? If you fall into one of these categories then I guess there's nothing to say.

If your reason for AIS is to avoid collisions with big ships, which does seem to be the most commonly expressed reason on this thread for AIS, then transmit will without a doubt make you more visible to ships and at the very least let them know where you are and which way you're going and that can only be a good thing.

Will AIS transmit reduce your risk of collision? Certainly won't increase it and the down side seems inconsequential for the overwhelming majority of us so why not go with it.
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Old 04-09-2016, 10:37   #219
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Re: AIS, Receiver or Transmitter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
...And that was a real, not a rhetorical invitation. The autumn is a nice time for an oyster cruise to St. Vaast or just a wine run to Cherbourg. Often a beam reach in an F6 or F7 (in the prevailing W wind).
I took it as real DH. I hope I can accept the invite someday. Gotta get to Newfoundland first. Then, who knows. Maybe we'll head across your way. The distance is shorter than heading to the Caribbean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
...Will AIS transmit reduce your risk of collision? Certainly won't increase it and the down side seems inconsequential for the overwhelming majority of us so why not go with it.
Makes sense ... makes common sense . I might go for it with our next upgrades if there's some extra boat bucks. I gotta upgrade my solar charger first though .
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Old 05-09-2016, 01:05   #220
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Re: AIS, Receiver or Transmitter

[QUOTE=skipmac;2205479]If security is a concern, if you're in pirate territory turn off the transmit.

If privacy is a concern, why? Worried the local burglary ring will check out where you are and break in to the house while you're gone? Worried that big brother is watching? Hiding from someone? Left your tinfoil hat at home? If you fall into one of these categories then I guess there's nothing to say.

We actually find this a real plus - the local authorities know where we are and watch us - We were headed into a small port in Italy on a long day run and when we arrived the dock manager said we did not expect you for another couple of hours and we had not contacted him - they were next to the CG and they watched us all the way down
In Albania we pulled into a small out of the way port and tied to an unused dock - a policeman was there and helped us tie up and got a phone call and we heard our boat name - he said Trainia was calling to make sure we arrived safely - in Russia they watched us all the up the coast and when we approached the port of Odessa they called us before we called them and before we reached the Messina Straits I was about to call to ask permission to enter and they called me first

Going from Poti Georgia to Sochi there is a bad little area that is disputed territory and both the Russians and Georgians told us to stay at least 20nm off the coast which our route took us but we also knew the Georgians and Russians were watching us - so we take comfort that the CG of various countries are watching us
we are not paranoid and really could care less

OH we have had our AIS for a long time - an ACR unit and we programmed our name into it - that really helps and facilities communications with CG and boats that we are talking to to arrange safe passage
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Old 05-09-2016, 01:30   #221
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Re: AIS, Receiver or Transmitter

[QUOTE=chuckr;2205887]
Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
If security is a concern, if you're in pirate territory turn off the transmit.

If privacy is a concern, why? Worried the local burglary ring will check out where you are and break in to the house while you're gone? Worried that big brother is watching? Hiding from someone? Left your tinfoil hat at home? If you fall into one of these categories then I guess there's nothing to say.

We actually find this a real plus - the local authorities know where we are and watch us - We were headed into a small port in Italy on a long day run and when we arrived the dock manager said we did not expect you for another couple of hours and we had not contacted him - they were next to the CG and they watched us all the way down
In Albania we pulled into a small out of the way port and tied to an unused dock - a policeman was there and helped us tie up and got a phone call and we heard our boat name - he said Trainia was calling to make sure we arrived safely - in Russia they watched us all the up the coast and when we approached the port of Odessa they called us before we called them and before we reached the Messina Straits I was about to call to ask permission to enter and they called me first

Going from Poti Georgia to Sochi there is a bad little area that is disputed territory and both the Russians and Georgians told us to stay at least 20nm off the coast which our route took us but we also knew the Georgians and Russians were watching us - so we take comfort that the CG of various countries are watching us
we are not paranoid and really could care less

OH we have had our AIS for a long time - an ACR unit and we programmed our name into it - that really helps and facilities communications with CG and boats that we are talking to to arrange safe passage
I think the privacy concern is a serious matter. I don't use Facebook etc. and don't want the whole world to be able to see what I had for breakfast on any given day. I don't like the idea that absolutely anyone, knowing my MMSI or boat name, can see where I am at any given moment, not at all.

But there are all the positive effects you mention. I am sure that I get visited much less by the various coast guards since I am broadcasting AIS and they can easily see not only who we are, but everywhere we've been. Just arrived in the UK after 1500 miles and 8 countries without a single "visit".
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Old 05-09-2016, 01:36   #222
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Re: AIS, Receiver or Transmitter

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There is no way to get even approximate idea of how you're crossing with another vessel with your bare eyes. ..... the "Mark I Eyeball", which is seriously overrated.
Sorry.. but that is not correct .

That is exactly what we did until the advent of ARPA.... as recently as the late 70's many ships did not run their radars when 'off soundings'.
Observe aspect, filter in brain for ones of interest, watch relative bearing for a bit in bridge window frame, refilter, if she now looks a risk take bearing with bridge wing repeater. Act on what the bearing is doing, rate of bearing change , opening/ closing etc.

Its what I still do on the yacht in clear vis... AIS is nice but not essential.. in my case at least.

'How is she heading' questions in the form... 'you are steering 000*, you observe a red light bearing 050*, how is she heading?' may still be in the orals exam.

So yes you can work out 'how you're crossing with another vessel with your bare eyes.'
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Old 05-09-2016, 01:43   #223
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Re: AIS, Receiver or Transmitter

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Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
....
Banning AIS receivers would be a great benefit to those people who do not yet have AIS and those who want to upgrade to transceivers. Increased production and sales of AIS transceivers will drive down the costs.
I think that a lot of manufacturers will get out of the RX market due to gradual decrease in demand..... in fact I think it is already happening
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Old 05-09-2016, 02:04   #224
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Re: AIS, Receiver or Transmitter

As a boat user, I see this discussion a slightly different way.
I do NOT ever feel morally obligated to purchase a piece of kit and use it. I purchase it because Im forced to or because I need it.

My boat has RADAR. I use it when I want to, for my knowledge and needs, not for anyone else. I carry crew at times and they inform me of sightings for my knowledge and adherence to Colregs.

I use AIS for my knowledge and information. I dont have TX. Does this mean I cannot use it? No.... Does this mean I am against having a TX unit? No... it means I dont have it plain and simple.

There is no moral obligation that I will accept to force me into buying a unit. Do I think its a help? In the right area yes, and where legally obligated to have.

Is it better than RADAR? Its different.

If its a moral issue then manufacturers should morally drop the price. Why should they benefit from something that everyone 'should' have?

I like AIS... one day I will have TX but like everything else, its an add on not a replacement. I dont have the luxury of buying everything at once... sometimes its one thing or another....... for those of us on a budget, families, children, student loans, job insecurity you will know what I mean.

I like it... but please stop with forcing everyone to get one.... its the thin edge of the wedge and making an expensive hobby even more expensive.

If I NEED it to sail then sailing has lost out...
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Old 05-09-2016, 02:16   #225
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Re: AIS, Receiver or Transmitter

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Sorry.. but that is not correct .

That is exactly what we did until the advent of ARPA.... as recently as the late 70's many ships did not run their radars when 'off soundings'.
Observe aspect, filter in brain for ones of interest, watch relative bearing for a bit in bridge window frame, refilter, if she now looks a risk take bearing with bridge wing repeater. Act on what the bearing is doing, rate of bearing change , opening/ closing etc.

Its what I still do on the yacht in clear vis... AIS is nice but not essential.. in my case at least.

'How is she heading' questions in the form... 'you are steering 000*, you observe a red light bearing 050*, how is she heading?' may still be in the orals exam.

So yes you can work out 'how you're crossing with another vessel with your bare eyes.'
Even in perfect visibility, you cannot distinguish a safe crossing a mile ahead from a safe crossing a mile behind from a collision course, with your bare eyes, from 5 miles away, and you can't tell anything at all at 10 miles, when the other vessel will be hull down.

You can at best distinguish a vessel with a rapidly changing bearing which you can exclude from consideration.
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