AIS INSTEAD of radar?

[CapnBazza]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

I enjoy my radar a lot and I would not go without it but let's be practical. Most boats do not have radar. It is a hassle to install, you need additional sensors (heading, STW), it is difficult to interpret (you need to play with the settings) and it is expensive. Also, while the discussion of sea vs ground stabilization is useful, you need totally take I to account the total system error: your STW is probably not accurate, ARPA has a lag on small radar syatems, the angular resolution sucks, etc. AIS on the other hand is cheap, accurate and well integrated. Most small boats should have a VHF radio with AIS receive and at least a Garmin 44 class plotter. If you are small, you do not necessarily need to transmit, just stay away from the big guys. For extra safety, uprade to AIS transmit. If you have extra budget (money and power) get a radar. Simple.

OK, so do you want us to explain why you’re wrong or are you just stirring a little?

[jmorrison146]

Radar can be adjusted to not hinder your night vision.
AIS is excellent collision avoidance because you call a contact by name, make sure he sees you, and discuss the situation.
VHF is collision avoidance in that it facilitates the conversation.
With that said, if forced to choose between radar and AIS I would certainly take radar.

[Pizzazz]

Originally Posted by CapnBazza

OK, so do you want us to explain why you’re wrong or are you just stirring a little?

Feel free to contribute to the discussion. I am just stating facts, bot playing devil's advocate. Walk the docks of any large marina and ask. 70% have AIS receive, 15% have AIS transmit, just as many have radar.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

I enjoy my radar a lot and I would not go without it but let's be practical. Most boats do not have radar. It is a hassle to install, you need additional sensors (heading, STW), it is difficult to interpret (you need to play with the settings) and it is expensive. Also, while the discussion of sea vs ground stabilization is useful, you need totally take I to account the total system error: your STW is probably not accurate, ARPA has a lag on small radar syatems, the angular resolution sucks, etc. AIS on the other hand is cheap, accurate and well integrated. Most small boats should have a VHF radio with AIS receive and at least a Garmin 44 class plotter. If you are small, you do not necessarily need to transmit, just stay away from the big guys. For extra safety, uprade to AIS transmit. If you have extra budget (money and power) get a radar. Simple.

Well, it depends on where and how you sail, doesn't it?


Even a small boat, if sailed offshore, in traffic, at night, and/or in all weather, will benefit greatly from not sailing "blind" when visibility is not there, and will benefit from being able to plot non-AIS targets, even if only with the EBL, and will benefit from being able to set radar guard zones. Arguably a smaller boat, which is less likely to carry a lot of crew, needs the last thing more than a bigger boat! And, if you sail in an area with dodgy charts, radar may be crucial for navigation/pilotage, whatever the size of the boat.



As has been said by many in this thread, AIS is not a substitute for radar -- AIS performs a different role.




But you are certainly right to the extent that many boats, probably most boats, especially smaller ones but not only, are used only in good weather, away from traffic, in daylight, in areas where the charts are good, etc., and don't need radar. I spent many years gunkholing around the coast of SW Florida without radar, and hardly ever felt the lack of it. Wouldn't leave home without it, where I sail now.

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

I enjoy my radar a lot and I would not go without it but let's be practical. Most boats do not have radar. It is a hassle to install, you need additional sensors (heading, STW), it is difficult to interpret (you need to play with the settings) and it is expensive. Also, while the discussion of sea vs ground stabilization is useful, you need totally take I to account the total system error: your STW is probably not accurate, ARPA has a lag on small radar syatems, the angular resolution sucks, etc. AIS on the other hand is cheap, accurate and well integrated. Most small boats should have a VHF radio with AIS receive and at least a Garmin 44 class plotter. If you are small, you do not necessarily need to transmit, just stay away from the big guys. For extra safety, uprade to AIS transmit. If you have extra budget (money and power) get a radar. Simple.

I have radar but pretty well agree with the above.

I have found that those vessels with poor maneuverability and large enough to do me serious damage have AIS. As a single hander I find that just having a bunch of blobs on a screen without the time to study them and not keep track of where each is going is more a distraction than a help.

[fish53]

This is quite simply an apples or oranges discussion, you may as well discuss whether a chainsaw or a hairbrush can do the same job. For my area (Maine) a radar is very useful, can you get by without? Sure but's great to have most of the time. AIS is in my opinion unnecessary on smaller vessels, if you have the cash why not but to think it can replace or do the job of radar is simply wrong.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

Feel free to contribute to the discussion. I am just stating facts, bot playing devil's advocate. Walk the docks of any large marina and ask. 70% have AIS receive, 15% have AIS transmit, just as many have radar.

Must be a local thing. I can see about 700 boats from our marina. Around here, maybe 1% or less have AIS of any flavor. Nowhere near double digits.

RADAR more often depends on size or style of boat. Lots of larger sail and sportfish/motor yacht vessles have RADAR. The bazillions more of local express boats (another couple hundred of those in the boat rack next door) and smaller sailboats don't seem to have squat.

-Chris

[fish53]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

I have radar but pretty well agree with the above.

I have found that those vessels with poor maneuverability and large enough to do me serious damage have AIS. As a single hander I find that just having a bunch of blobs on a screen without the time to study them and not keep track of where each is going is more a distraction than a help.

I would suggest you upgrade to a radar that plots if you don't already have one and perhaps learn how to better utilize the unit you have.

[RUSTYNAIL]

If you can afford it, get a new radar and AIS. MySimrad 4G does things I never dreamed of years ago. I trust my radar to do many more things than the AIS can do. AIS is also worth its weight in gold. I always look for human factors, and a human can be in control of your life on the other vessel. If their AIS isn't on or functioning properly you could be on a course to death.
If you can't afford it, that's another thing.

[Discovery 15797]

Originally Posted by callistov42

My old Autohelm radar finally died. One of the electronics guys I was talking to suggested that if I installed AIS I really didn't need to replace the radar. The fact is that I almost never used my radar unless I was closing on a coast or looking for a reef. Another friend who’s boat is in New Zealand is really enthusiastic about the Vesper Marine “smart AIS”. I plan on putting a Raymarine MFD in the cockpit at the helm station (I already have one below at the nav station) that will repeat the chart and display the AIS information. Any comments about the need for both radar and AIS?

OK...I'll just say what other's are thinking...the electronics guys you were talking with are idiots. (There...I said it!)

First, AIS and radar are 2 different technologies. They have some things that overlap, and some that are completely unique.

Let's look at AIS

• AIS provides you info on other boats that are equipped with an AIS transponder within your general vicinity.
  AIS does allow you to easily identify and contact vessels via VHF.
  AIS provides tracking info of boats with AIS transcievers
  AIS provides collision avoidance alarms with vessels transmitting AIS info.
  AIS does NOT show ALL BOATS within your general vicinity.
  AIS does not show landmass
  AIS cannot be used for navigation

Let's look at Radar

• Radar will 'paint' MOST vessels in your general vicinity
  Radar will display landmass
  Radar can display storm systems
  Some Radar can show vessel trails to help calculate course and speed
  Radar has proximity alarms for ANY target within a specified range
  Radar can be used for 'rough' navigation esp. at night and in fog.
  Radar will paint buoys and other navigational aids
  Radar does take time to learn to use properly
  Radar can be difficult to use in rough and confused seas

So, each technology has advantages and disadvantages. Anyone who relies solely on AIS for collision avoidance is a fool. Likewise, anyone who relies on solely radar for navigation is a fool. Each can be a useful tool in the hands of competent people.

You know the type of sailing you do, and you know the sailing area you are in so I recommend you choose the tool that does the job for those conditions and that will give you the peace of mind you look for. But, comparing AIS to Radar is like comparing a compass and log to a chartplotter.

[Cpt Mark]

If you are buying a new MFD it will have all the cool features of the Vespar. For this reason I bought the cheapest AIS transceiver.

IMHO, if your budget allows, have both. If your only going to have one, I'd go with radar

[fish53]

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

OK...I'll just say what other's are thinking...the electronics guys you were talking with are idiots. (There...I said it!)

First, AIS and radar are 2 different technologies. They have some things that overlap, and some that are completely unique.

Let's look at AIS

• AIS provides you info on other boats that are equipped with an AIS transponder within your general vicinity.
  AIS does allow you to easily identify and contact vessels via VHF.
  AIS provides tracking info of boats with AIS transcievers
  AIS provides collision avoidance alarms with vessels transmitting AIS info.
  AIS does NOT show ALL BOATS within your general vicinity.
  AIS does not show landmass
  AIS cannot be used for navigation

Let's look at Radar

• Radar will 'paint' MOST vessels in your general vicinity
  Radar will display landmass
  Radar can display storm systems
  Some Radar can show vessel trails to help calculate course and speed
  Radar has proximity alarms for ANY target within a specified range
  Radar can be used for 'rough' navigation esp. at night and in fog.
  Radar will paint buoys and other navigational aids
  Radar does take time to learn to use properly
  Radar can be difficult to use in rough and confused seas

So, each technology has advantages and disadvantages. Anyone who relies solely on AIS for collision avoidance is a fool. Likewise, anyone who relies on solely radar for navigation is a fool. Each can be a useful tool in the hands of competent people.

You know the type of sailing you do, and you know the sailing area you are in so I recommend you choose the tool that does the job for those conditions and that will give you the peace of mind you look for. But, comparing AIS to Radar is like comparing a compass and log to a chartplotter.

Today most radars can plot a target and I would suggest that rather than "rough" navigation with the accurate range and bearing provided by radar and the use of now old fashioned plotting navigation can be quite good with radar. I do strongly agree that one must take the time to learn about radar to unlock it's most efficient use, once accomplished radar is an extremely useful tool. As I said elsewhere on smaller vessels AIS is nice but hardly necessary.

[RUSTYNAIL]

We've sort of beat this subject to death, but one thing my new Simrad radar does, is automatically adjust just about everything for me. This is a giant addition for me, as I was always concerned that I hadn't properly tuned my radar. I am presently working on a project to identify types of boats that have built in reflective surfaces compared to boats that are basically stealth when built. Any feedback would be appreciated as you all cruise the seas.⛵️⛵️⛵️

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

. . .

• Radar can be used for 'rough' navigation esp. at night and in fog.. . .

If you know how to do it, radar navigation is not "rough" at all. Radar is a very powerful navigation tool.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by RUSTYNAIL

We've sort of beat this subject to death, but one thing my new Simrad radar does, is automatically adjust just about everything for me. This is a giant addition for me, as I was always concerned that I hadn't properly tuned my radar. . . .

The automatic controls of the new Navico radars are a great leap forward, compared to those on the older pulse radars most of us grew up on, but you still need to understand the controls and know how to tune the radar. Especially when it's raining, and/or when the sea is up, the automatic controls are no substitute for the skill of the operator.


If anything, the solid state Navico radars actually require MORE skill, as we have additional controls -- Target Separation, for one, which controls the beam sharpening function. This control cannot be set automatically.