Advice on electronics upgrade

[sailingharry]

Bmz, I sail out of Annapolis. As I was reading your post, I was thinking "I really forgot about writing this...". Seriously, it's so close to how I feel! Two thumbs up -- Class B has destroyed AIS! If chart plotters could filter out Class B and stationary targets, AIS would be invaluable.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by bmz

This may not be relevant to you; but generally I hate AIS transponders.

I usually solo sail out of Baltimore Maryland. There is a lot of big commercial traffic--which do not yield to sailboats. When I first got my AIS receiver, it was a godsend; no more thousand foot freighters sneaking up on me (and yes they do that). Now, however, my AIS is almost useless with all the class B (small boats) clutter. There is absolutely no reason for all this clutter when visibility is good. Small boats are maneuverable and only need about 100 foot visibility for safety from other small boats; moreover, you must yield to all large commercial traffic (which don't have the maneuverability to avoid you, even if they wanted to).

If small boats with AIS transponders were considerate and turned them off when unneeded, transponders would be okay. But most aren't, and are destroying the utility of AIS with their clutter.

This kind of argument comes up on CF fairly often along with it's related argument that people sailed for a long time without AIS. From my point of view they are both pretty weak arguments. Turning off an AIS tx does nothing to remove the target. It is still there, just harder to see and much harder to determine it's CPA/TCPA. It does take a quality chartplotter to display targets in a meaningful way. Some do this much better than others.

AIS is one of the best bang for your buck in marine electronics.

[bmz]

Originally Posted by Paul L

This kind of argument comes up on CF fairly often along with it's related argument that people sailed for a long time without AIS. From my point of view they are both pretty weak arguments. Turning off an AIS tx does nothing to remove the target. It is still there, just harder to see and much harder to determine it's CPA/TCPA. It does take a quality chartplotter to display targets in a meaningful way. Some do this much better than others.

AIS is one of the best bang for your buck in marine electronics.

An AIS receiver at $200 is a great buy. Class B transponders should not be sold because of the danger they are to the AIS system; as I explained.

What I said has nothing to do with people who have sailed without AIS. Moreover, what "both weak arguments" are you talking about.?

You are wrong about turning off the AIS tx not removing the target. Have you ever actually used an AIS? When an AIS tx is on your chart plotter there is only one single very bright target--it never gets dimmer or brighter. When the target turn off his tx, the target instantly disappears from all chart plotters. The CPA/TCPA is automatically calculated by the chart plotter. When I am on a collision course with a target, in addition to the target and its vector, my chart plotter shows where the collision is projected to occur--all this is automatic with no fading, calculations, or any other nonsense.

The only real issue with AIS is when I have guys like you who think it's a great toy and transmit at wholly unnecessary times and create so many targets on the chart plotter that it is rendered almost useless.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by Paul L

This kind of argument comes up on CF fairly often along with it's related argument that people sailed for a long time without AIS. From my point of view they are both pretty weak arguments. Turning off an AIS tx does nothing to remove the target. It is still there, just harder to see and much harder to determine it's CPA/TCPA. It does take a quality chartplotter to display targets in a meaningful way. Some do this much better than others.



AIS is one of the best bang for your buck in marine electronics.

+1,000

The trick is having a display that is readable. I prefer Vesper WiFi'd to an iPad. This way I can scale and get info more easily than a chart plotter.

[bmz]

Let me put a qualification on my statements above. It is meant to apply to places like Baltimore, Annapolis and other places where there are thousands of recreational boats big enough to purchase AIS transponders. That's why I started off by saying that it might not apply to the OP. In places where the transponder traffic is not great, it doesn't pose a hazard to the AIS system. I don't even mind if people use their transponders at night or during the week. All it takes is consideration and recognition of the hazard that class B transmissions pose. But the state of navigation today in the Baltimore/Annapolis area, and I'm sure every other popular location, is that we will never achieve that consideration.

I understand that most commercial traffic simply turn off their class B reception. So all you class B transmitters out there aren't even protected from what you think you are protecting yourselves from.

[bmz]

Originally Posted by Snore

+1,000

The trick is having a display that is readable. I prefer Vesper WiFi'd to an iPad. This way I can scale and get info more easily than a chart plotter.

That is wonderful; now can you try to be considerate of the majority who use chart plotters, and turn off your tx in crowded areas when it's not necessary? Thank you.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by bmz

An AIS receiver at $200 is a great buy. Class B transponders should not be sold because of the danger they are to the AIS system; as I explained.

What I said has nothing to do with people who have sailed without AIS. Moreover, what "both weak arguments" are you talking about.?

You are wrong about turning off the AIS tx not removing the target. Have you ever actually used an AIS? When an AIS tx is on your chart plotter there is only one single very bright target--it never gets dimmer or brighter. When the target turn off his tx, the target instantly disappears from all chart plotters. The CPA/TCPA is automatically calculated by the chart plotter. When I am on a collision course with a target, in addition to the target and its vector, my chart plotter shows where the collision is projected to occur--all this is automatic with no fading, calculations, or any other nonsense.

The only real issue with AIS is when I have guys like you who think it's a great toy and transmit at wholly unnecessary times and create so many targets on the chart plotter that it is rendered almost useless.

When you turn off your AIS tx the display symbol on a receiver plotter goes away. The actual target, aka your boat, stays on the water and there is zero change in the actual CPA/TCPA it is just harder for other vessels to determine.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by bmz

.......
I understand that most commercial traffic simply turn off their class B reception. So all you class B transmitters out there aren't even protected from what you think you are protecting yourselves from.

Do a little searching and you'll see how many times this myth has been debunked.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by bmz

An AIS receiver at $200 is a great buy. Class B transponders should not be sold because of the danger they are to the AIS system; as I explained.

What I said has nothing to do with people who have sailed without AIS. Moreover, what "both weak arguments" are you talking about.?

You are wrong about turning off the AIS tx not removing the target. Have you ever actually used an AIS? When an AIS tx is on your chart plotter there is only one single very bright target--it never gets dimmer or brighter. When the target turn off his tx, the target instantly disappears from all chart plotters. The CPA/TCPA is automatically calculated by the chart plotter. When I am on a collision course with a target, in addition to the target and its vector, my chart plotter shows where the collision is projected to occur--all this is automatic with no fading, calculations, or any other nonsense.

The only real issue with AIS is when I have guys like you who think it's a great toy and transmit at wholly unnecessary times and create so many targets on the chart plotter that it is rendered almost useless.

You are arguing about the user interface on YOUR PARTICULAR AIS display. Don't denigrate the AIS system because you have a UI that is either crappy or you don't know how to use it!

Reality is AIS receive only devices should have never been made.

Newsflash: If nobody transmitted AIS, there wouldn't be anything to receive!

[Jerry Woodward]

Originally Posted by bmz

That is wonderful; now can you try to be considerate of the majority who use chart plotters, and turn off your tx in crowded areas when it's not necessary? Thank you.

Speaking of being considerate, you might want to refrain from hijacking other's threads. Why don't you start your own AIS rant thread. I'm sure there will be endless flames and personal insults.

[Jerry Woodward]

Originally Posted by Snore

+1,000

The trick is having a display that is readable. I prefer Vesper WiFi'd to an iPad. This way I can scale and get info more easily than a chart plotter.

This is what I'm hoping to do. What nav apps have you found work with AIS overlay? Navionics?

[bmz]

Originally Posted by Paul L

When you turn off your AIS tx the display symbol on a receiver plotter goes away. The actual target, aka your boat, stays on the water and there is zero change in the actual CPA/TCPA it is just harder for other vessels to determine.

Well that's all we're really talking about, aren't we?
Once your boat disappears from our chart plotters you have solved all of our problems. Whether your boat is still there or not is irrelevant. If we get close enough to intersect we will see each other and the appropriate vessel will yield.

[Snore]

Originally Posted by bmz

That is wonderful; now can you try to be considerate of the majority who use chart plotters, and turn off your tx in crowded areas when it's not necessary? Thank you.

Nope. I sail in SW and SE FLA- both fairly crowded. Having it in ensures vessels coming in and out of port see me. Messing around turning it off and on invites one to forget to turn it on of a squall comes up.

Most COMPETENT masters and pilots monitor Class B's. I know this since I have had vessels dodge around me in blue water and have heard pilots call AIS recreational vessels by name when they have an issue.


Zoom in to reduce the number of targets or set a CPA alarm and just ignore the display.

[bmz]

Originally Posted by DotDun

You are arguing about the user interface on YOUR PARTICULAR AIS display. Don't denigrate the AIS system because you have a UI that is either crappy or you don't know how to use it!

Reality is AIS receive only devices should have never been made.

Newsflash: If nobody transmitted AIS, there wouldn't be anything to receive!

I know there are some AIS/chart plotter combos that permit class A/B selection, but mine (a new Garmin) and most others don't.

Newsflash: do you really think you can get anywhere with a strawman argument? All I ever said was that class B transponders are hazard--so please don't try to put words in my mouth--but then again that appears to be all you have.

Small boats in periods of good visibility can see each other easily and maneuver around each other easily. They don't need to be cluttering up chart plotters. What we all do need to see are large commercial vessels (class A)--we must yield to them, and they couldn't maneuver away from us if they wanted to. Your transponder provides you with nothing that a receiver only wouldn't regarding them(they don't yield to you). Your statement that an AIS receiver should not be made is simply frivolous.
I recognize that a class B transponder has value in periods of poor visibility; that is why it is only recently that I have come to the conclusion that they shouldn't be sold. If the sailors who owned them used them responsibly, they could be justified. But you can't, and you are destroying a valuable safety feature for our waterways.

[Paul L]

[QUOTE=bmz;2455191]I know there are some AIS/chart plotter combos that permit class A/B selection, but mine (a new Garmin) and most others don't.

Newsflash: do you really think you can get anywhere with a strawman argument? All I ever said was that class B transponders are hazard--so please don't try to put words in my mouth--but then again that appears to be all you have.

Small boats in periods of good visibility can see each other easily and maneuver around each other easily. They don't need to be cluttering up chart plotters. What we all do need to see are large commercial vessels (class A)--we must yield to them, and they couldn't maneuver away from us if they wanted to. Your transponder provides you with nothing that a receiver only wouldn't regarding them(they don't yield to you). Your statement that an AIS receiver should not be made is simply frivolous.
I recognize that a class B transponder has value in periods of poor visibility; that is why it is only recently that I have come to the conclusion that they shouldn't be sold. If the sailors who owned them used them responsibly, they could be justified. But you can't, and you are destroying a valuable safety feature for our waterways.[/QUOTE]

It might be destroying a safety feature for you, but it clearly works well for others. Is your issue the excessive AIS symbols on your chartplotter or the AIS alarms being generated? Many plotters have very good alarm profile settings that radically reduce nuisance alarms. Vesper is probably the leader on this feature.
The most cluttered AIS screen I've had to deal with was almost entirely class A. A 100 targets virtually blocking the approach to the Panama Canal. Tricky navigation and difficult to sort out which actual vessel was moving versus all the anchored ones.