Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 30-06-2015, 04:13   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Boat: Island Packet 40
Posts: 1,324
Images: 7
Re: 220 vs 110 Volts...

If you already have the boat set up to run from 12V with a inverter it appears to make sense to just buy a decent sized 240v battery charger and avoid all the problems with voltages and cycles etc?
__________________

__________________
RaymondR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-06-2015, 15:34   #17
Senior Cruiser
 
witzgall's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Wintering in Annapolis
Boat: Camper Nicholson 44 Ketch
Posts: 1,715
Re: 220 vs 110 Volts...

At the service company where I work, we have done several boats that were going to europe and wanted an easy to use system for their power needs at dock over there. In a nutshell:

1. Enumerate your power users, and what can work off of 50hz, and what can only use 60hz.
2. A transformer to take 220 and make 120 (but at 50hz)
3. A wide input charger that can work off of the 220 and charge the batts.
4. an inverter big enough to power your 60hz loads.

The "Secret sauce" is a selector switch that is labeled 50hz, off and 60hz. We wire up the loads so when 50hz is selected, those 50hz safe loads take the power from the panel as usual (once it is stepped down from 220 to 120). The 60hz loads are powered by the inverter. When in the 60hz position, all loads are powered by the panel, as before the changes were made.

We have always put in a separate 220v euro inlet, but you could use an autotransformer on your current inlet, and then make up some pigtails to adapt to the correct connectors.

So in review, turn the switch to 50hz when you cross the pond, plug into the 200v 50 hz power, and everything works.

The switches can be quite long (deep), depending on the number of circuits being powered. these custom ordered from Kraus & Naimer.


Chris
__________________

__________________
witzgall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2015, 02:01   #18
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 17,540
Re: 220 vs 110 Volts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by witzgall View Post
At the service company where I work, we have done several boats that were going to europe and wanted an easy to use system for their power needs at dock over there. In a nutshell:

1. Enumerate your power users, and what can work off of 50hz, and what can only use 60hz.
2. A transformer to take 220 and make 120 (but at 50hz)
3. A wide input charger that can work off of the 220 and charge the batts.
4. an inverter big enough to power your 60hz loads.

The "Secret sauce" is a selector switch that is labeled 50hz, off and 60hz. We wire up the loads so when 50hz is selected, those 50hz safe loads take the power from the panel as usual (once it is stepped down from 220 to 120). The 60hz loads are powered by the inverter. When in the 60hz position, all loads are powered by the panel, as before the changes were made.

We have always put in a separate 220v euro inlet, but you could use an autotransformer on your current inlet, and then make up some pigtails to adapt to the correct connectors.

So in review, turn the switch to 50hz when you cross the pond, plug into the 200v 50 hz power, and everything works.

The switches can be quite long (deep), depending on the number of circuits being powered. these custom ordered from Kraus & Naimer.


Chris
Sounds. . . complex.

Wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper just to size the inverter to deal with all the loads?

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2015, 04:32   #19
Senior Cruiser
 
witzgall's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Wintering in Annapolis
Boat: Camper Nicholson 44 Ketch
Posts: 1,715
Re: 220 vs 110 Volts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Sounds. . . complex.

Wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper just to size the inverter to deal with all the loads?

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
It depends on what the loads are. If the air conditioning units can handle 50hz, and you already have a decent sized-inverter, it does not take much additional stuff, but wiring the switch obviously needs to be planned out well.

We did two boats this winter. One did not have much in the way of loads that could handle 50hz, and they were willing to live without ac. We just put in a new inverter, charger and shorepower inlet, no 50/60 switch.

The second boat had a good inverter, so we added a new SP inlet >> transformer, 50/60 switch and a small wide input charger.

Each installation is different. In all instances, the goal is to keep the functionality the customer wants, not have to drag low quality gear onto deck and rely on it, and to make it as foolproof as possible.

Chris
__________________
witzgall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2015, 04:46   #20
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Mediterranean
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 6,987
Re: 220 vs 110 Volts...

This discussion reminds my wife and I about an event which took place four years ago in a Portugese hotel. My wife put the Continental two prong adapter on her 110v 60hz blow dryer and plugged it in. You should have seen the look on her face when the blow dryer turned into a flamethrower sounding like a jet engine.

She shut it off just in time.... the thing still works.
__________________
Kenomac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2015, 07:10   #21
Registered User
 
alphabravo2's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Houston, TX
Boat: Broadblue 385
Posts: 55
Images: 1
Re: 220 vs 110 Volts...

Thanks to everyone for the answers!!! I did not expect that much information. After reviewing the coaching received, I have now narrowed it down to wanting my Prosine 2000 inverter charger to charge my batteries when needed, and, if the temp is like now in south Europe, run my AC!!! I will need to figure-out if my 16,000 BTU FLAGSHIP AC can take 50 AND 60 Hz...
The rest, like Microwave, TV, etc... can be run from the inverter.
My lar panels (6 X 130 Watts) should work ok in the south.
Once again, THANKS everyone!
__________________
alphabravo2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2015, 08:26   #22
Registered User
 
ka4wja's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 1,974
Re: 220 vs 110 Volts...

alphabravo,
You're very welcome....
(please let us know WHEN you are leaving??)


Three things to highlight for you...

1) Please be sure to read over the links provided in this post #7 here....you'll learn a LOT...
220 vs 110 Volts...


2) If you primarily need the Air Cond, then you can add a transformer capable of handing that load (usually NOT going to be a 110vac "tool" transformer!), and the transformer, plugs and cords, etc., can all be done for < $500....(if you have the time, and look....you might be able to do it for $250-$300...)
If you have the budget for some of the other (complex / expensive) options, then go for it....but, if not, I just wanted you to be aware that this is not an expensive project...


3) If your primary need is the Air Cond, yes checking to see if it is 50hz/60hz compatible is good....but I personally know folks who have "newer" Air Cond units that are only 60hz, and they have run them successfully for a couple summers on 50hz without incident....(maybe not a good thing, but some do it....and have had no issues....)
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphabravo2 View Post
if the temp is like now in south Europe, run my AC!!! I will need to figure-out if my 16,000 BTU FLAGSHIP AC can take 50 AND 60 Hz...
The rest, like Microwave, TV, etc... can be run from the inverter.
My lar panels (6 X 130 Watts) should work ok in the south.
Once again, THANKS everyone!
I hope this helps...

Fair winds..

John
__________________
John, KA4WJA
s/v Annie Laurie, WDB6927
MMSI# 366933110
ka4wja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2015, 11:23   #23
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: canada
Posts: 1,532
Re: 220 vs 110 Volts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphabravo2 View Post
Thanks to everyone for the answers!!! I did not expect that much information. After reviewing the coaching received, I have now narrowed it down to wanting my Prosine 2000 inverter charger to charge my batteries when needed, and, if the temp is like now in south Europe, run my AC!!! I will need to figure-out if my 16,000 BTU FLAGSHIP AC can take 50 AND 60 Hz...
The rest, like Microwave, TV, etc... can be run from the inverter.
My lar panels (6 X 130 Watts) should work ok in the south.
Once again, THANKS everyone!
your inverter charger would be dissaconnected from power and in inverter mode. you'd need a 2nd charger to charge the batteries. otherwise it would be in passthrough mode sending 50hz to all the plugs. I doubt the prosine would take 230 / 50hz anyways.
__________________
smac999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2015, 11:44   #24
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 17,540
Re: 220 vs 110 Volts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smac999 View Post
your inverter charger would be dissaconnected from power and in inverter mode. you'd need a 2nd charger to charge the batteries. otherwise it would be in passthrough mode sending 50hz to all the plugs. I doubt the prosine would take 230 / 50hz anyways.
Indeed, as several on here have advised.

Another word -- be careful about the capacity of the inverter. They never give the rated power. My "3000 watt" Victron is actually 2500 on a really good day; if it's hot outside, less.

They can be ganged for more capacity.

Battery bank should correspond, too.

Sent from my SGP521 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2015, 11:59   #25
Registered User
 
ka4wja's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 1,974
Re: 220 vs 110 Volts...

alphabravo,
Dockhead makes a good point here...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Another word -- be careful about the capacity of the inverter. They never give the rated power. My "3000 watt" Victron is actually 2500 on a really good day; if it's hot outside, less.
A 16,000 BTU Marine Air unit will draw about 12 amps @ 115vac under normal cooling operation (including the blower), plus another amp or two for the circulating pump....and more on start-up!!
That's > 1400 - 1500 watts....and that's a big load to run from an inverter for hours and hours and hours....
And you're going to need a 230vac battery charger in anycase, as even your 780 watts of solar are NOT going to keep up with the power consumption of the Air Cond, even under clear skies and bright sun!! (not to mention at night!!)
And then, you've got a charger running all day / all night, as well as your present inverter....in addition to the conversion losses, and wasted energy, all-in-all, a pretty inelegant solution....


If you can run your Air Cond on 50hz (which most of the newer units are NOT spec'ed for), then, in my opinion, you'll be much better off using a 230vac to 115vac transformer, for the Air Cond....(and keep the inverter for other loads, if needed)



Fair winds..

John
__________________
John, KA4WJA
s/v Annie Laurie, WDB6927
MMSI# 366933110
ka4wja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2015, 15:35   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Tayana 37
Posts: 42
Re: 220 vs 110 Volts...

@alphabravo2

Your conclusion does not stack up.

If shore power is required in one location then shore power is required in another location.
Consider that your AC plant requires shore power in 110 volt land as specified by the boat builder.
When in Europe the laws of physics don't change.
Accordingly shore power, as per design, will still be required to run the AC plant in Europe.

Your solution of a Prosine 2000 will not run a 16000 BTU AC unit.
[16000 BTU is 4689 Watt-hours, which is 390 Amp-hours at 12 volts]

It will not even allow it to start-up , as the start electrical demand is nearly double the running demand.

If you run a 2000 Watt inverter, it will, allowing for efficiency, deliver perhaps 1500 Watt at 12 volts.
This is 2000 watts /12 volts which is 166 Amps
How big is your battery bank.?
Can it deliver such current sustained? Unless it is of industrial proportions, it will not deliver this current for more than a few minutes.
Where will you get the energy source to recharge such a mighty battery load?

Why not try running your AC plant from your inverter now and see what happens!!.

Cast a cold eye on those who try to sell you "$olutions" that can't work.

Boat systems are specified for a reason and a crossover between battery power and shore power such as an inverter/charger is only appropriate for small devices.

The 220/110 volt isolation transformer as described by ka4wja is the only viable source.

__________________
kish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2015, 16:20   #27
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 17,540
Re: 220 vs 110 Volts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kish View Post
@alphabravo2

Your conclusion does not stack up.

If shore power is required in one location then shore power is required in another location.
Consider that your AC plant requires shore power in 110 volt land as specified by the boat builder.
When in Europe the laws of physics don't change.
Accordingly shore power, as per design, will still be required to run the AC plant in Europe.

Your solution of a Prosine 2000 will not run a 16000 BTU AC unit.
[16000 BTU is 4689 Watt-hours, which is 390 Amp-hours at 12 volts]

It will not even allow it to start-up , as the start electrical demand is nearly double the running demand.

If you run a 2000 Watt inverter, it will, allowing for efficiency, deliver perhaps 1500 Watt at 12 volts.
This is 2000 watts /12 volts which is 166 Amps
How big is your battery bank.?
Can it deliver such current sustained? Unless it is of industrial proportions, it will not deliver this current for more than a few minutes.
Where will you get the energy source to recharge such a mighty battery load?

Why not try running your AC plant from your inverter now and see what happens!!.

Cast a cold eye on those who try to sell you "$olutions" that can't work.

Boat systems are specified for a reason and a crossover between battery power and shore power such as an inverter/charger is only appropriate for small devices.

The 220/110 volt isolation transformer as described by ka4wja is the only viable source.

"a crossover between battery power and shore power such as an inverter/charger is only appropriate for small devices."

Huh?

It's appropriate for whatever devices are within its specs. That would seem pretty obviously. Not "small devices" if the specs are not small.

I you have a 100 or 120 amp x 24v charger -- separate from the inverter -- and an inverter with realistic output of 3kW, then you can run 3kW worth of gear without any problem as long as your AVERAGE consumption doesn't run beyond the charger's capacity, while you're plugged into shore power.

My inverter makes 2kW to 2.5kW -- not that much. Capable of twice that for short periods. My boat has a lot of AC electrical gear -- no aircon, but microwave, kettle, electric oven, washer/dryer, electronics, and all kinds of other stuff. You have to manage the loads, and avoid having big ones on at once, but the system works fine off the somewhat puny inverter. When my generator was briefly not working a few years ago, I even ran all that with a Honda 1kW generator charging -- as long as the AVERAGE consumption is not more than 1kW, then even that works.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2015, 18:34   #28
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Tayana 37
Posts: 42
Re: 220 vs 110 Volts...

The original poster alphabravo2 asked about 110 to 230 volt conversion
while you're plugged into shore power.

The most efficient solution while on shore power is to use the shore power available in the most energy efficient and cost effective manner.

There is no doubt that a conversion from the local marina's AC suopply to boats voltage system [230 to 110 volt], as described by ka4wja is the most energy efficient and least disruptive to the boats systems.

A very large battery charger to power a very large inverter, loses at both stages of energy conversion. [230volt AC to 12v DC and 12v DC to 110volt AC] is inherently more lossy than a straight conversion from 230/110 v using an isolation transformer. There is also the question of potentially shortening the life of the batteries with the large current flow.

Use of shore power from a suitably rated isolation transformer is much more co$t effective and provides galvanic isolation as a bonus.

__________________
kish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2015, 00:51   #29
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 17,540
Re: 220 vs 110 Volts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kish View Post
The original poster alphabravo2 asked about 110 to 230 volt conversion
while you're plugged into shore power.

The most efficient solution while on shore power is to use the shore power available in the most energy efficient and cost effective manner.

There is no doubt that a conversion from the local marina's AC suopply to boats voltage system [230 to 110 volt], as described by ka4wja is the most energy efficient and least disruptive to the boats systems.

A very large battery charger to power a very large inverter, loses at both stages of energy conversion. [230volt AC to 12v DC and 12v DC to 110volt AC] is inherently more lossy than a straight conversion from 230/110 v using an isolation transformer. There is also the question of potentially shortening the life of the batteries with the large current flow.

Use of shore power from a suitably rated isolation transformer is much more co$t effective and provides galvanic isolation as a bonus.

That's all true.

Converting AC to DC and back again will induce losses. But the isolation transformer also has losses. There's not an order of magnitude of difference between the efficiency of the two conversions, and ultimate efficiency of using shore power is usually not anyone's concern -- rarely are you charged by the kWH, and even if you are, the cost is trivial compared to all this electrical work.

The benefit of using a big inverter is you have super clean power of just the right voltage and just the right frequency for all your gear no matter what kind of power you have coming into the boat. Another benefit to running all AC gear off an inverter is that you're completely isolated from shore power, not just galvanically, and just don't care about the shore power as long as your charger can handle it. This architecture is especially good for boats with solar and generators, especially DC generators, and which are set up to be autonomous. Note the other thread where a guy is building a million plus dollar cruising boat and doesn't have any shore power system at all -- he's totally autonomous.

Big current flows don't go through your batteries as long as you have the charger switched on when you're using your gear.

You can improve the efficiency of the whole scheme by separating stuff which doesn't care about frequency, and running that directly. But the big question is whether you will ever recoup the cost of the increased complexity of such a system versus just making the inverter bigger -- I think not. And the OP was asking about air conditioning -- which will most likely care a lot about frequency.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2015, 17:33   #30
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Boat: Tayana 37
Posts: 42
Re: 220 vs 110 Volts...

To state facts, not opinions:

"rarely are you charged by the kWH, and even if you are, the cost is trivial compared to all this electrical work."!!
My experience in buying smart cards in marinas is that the marina charges a markup 3 to 4 to 5 times the kWh unit cost compared to the utility cost per kWh.

The benefit of using a big inverter is you have super clean power of just the right voltage and just the right frequency for all your gear no matter what kind of power you have coming into the boat.

This is an incorrect statement.
Converting DC to AC produces an AC voltage that is not clean, let alone "superclean".
The total harmonic distortion (THD) of even a pure sine inverter is several orders of magnitude greater than that the native AC supply to the inverter.

Another benefit to running all AC gear off an inverter is that you're completely isolated from shore power, not just galvanically,

This is incorrect also
The battery negative is the boat's ground connection, tied to AC incoming supply ground via [hopefully] a galvanic isolator.
There is no, none, nada isolation from using an inverter with a connection to the battery negative.
The only direct isolation from AC input ground from a marina AC connection, is from an isolation transformer.

__________________

__________________
kish is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Helia 44: Electrical - 110 and 220 Volt Systems Cotemar Fountaine Pajot 6 27-12-2016 15:01
Mahe 36: Electrical - 110 and 220 Volt Systems jean1146 Fountaine Pajot 60 03-08-2016 09:04
1000 Watts at 240 Volts AC is How Many Watts at 12 Volts DC resilientg Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 8 30-01-2013 21:14
Up-Converting Voltage from .56 Volts to 12.6 Volts schoonerdog Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 18 05-04-2010 04:30
110 vs 220, which & why? Intentional Drifter Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 20 20-06-2007 03:05


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:38.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.