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Old 19-11-2013, 22:00   #61
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
Not sure what your point is. Since the word "may" does not mean "must" what this rule tells us is that the privileged vessel can dodge and weave if they decide to without a rule violation. And the problem wasn't that the ferry did "not take appropriate action in compliance with" the rule, but rather than it turned and ran over the guy. The sailboat skipper had a few seconds to react, and if he had, he may have avoided collision, just as I may avoid collision with a drunk driver who crosses into my lane. If I fail to do so, I won't have any share of liability, anymore than this poor fellow will.

But, no need to debate. Let's see what the CG report says, and if it says anything about the sailboat at all, it will be boilerplate on the need to keep a vigilant watch at all times, without apportioning the slightest blame.

These ferries pass me all the time within 300' or so, but I doubt I would be held responsible if I assumed they weren't going to suddenly turn in my direction because the helmsman can't tell her right from her left.
As you calculated, the ferry would have travelled but 300' from the point it turned to Tasya. Although the amount of turn was never discussed in the report, I don't think it was a 90 turn; therefore the actual CPA had the ferry maintained its original course would have been considerably less than 300'. Now if you're going to tell me that ferries have passed you at less than 100 yards, in a channel over a half-mile wide, while going 18 kts, without so much as a "howdya do" over VHF, then I'm gonna call BS.
I can tell you, if a 2700 ton ship is aiming to pass 50 yards off my beam at 18 kts, I'm not only going to watch it like a hawk, but I'm going to have my hand on the wheel and my escape route planned. And that's assuming we've talked on VHF, I'm certain they know I'm there, and I'm willing to accept a close passing. Any one of those criteria aren't met, and I'm exercising my right to make more searoom.

The whole "there's nuthin' he coulda done" argument is a cop-out. He shouldn't have allowed the ferry to get that close in the first place. What if it was a burst hydraulic line, rather than helmsman error that put the rudder hard over? You say he only had 10 seconds or so to see that something was wrong, formulate a plan and react. I'm saying he only had 10 seconds to do that, because he wasn't paying attention and taking action before he got into extremis.

Sure you can't do anything if a drunk swerves across the yellow line at the last second, but if you're driving alongside a drunk swerving all over the place next to you for miles, then you should at least accept some of the blame when he inevitably collides with you.

PS. Last time I checked the CG doesn't apportion blame - they say who did or didn't do what, but apportionment is usually left to the courts.
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Old 19-11-2013, 22:08   #62
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
As you calculated, the ferry would have travelled but 300' from the point it turned to Tasya. Although the amount of turn was never discussed in the report, I don't think it was a 90 turn; therefore the actual CPA had the ferry maintained its original course would have been considerably less than 300'. Now if you're going to tell me that ferries have passed you at less than 100 yards, in a channel over a half-mile wide, while going 18 kts, without so much as a "howdya do" over VHF, then I'm gonna call BS.
I can tell you, if a 2700 ton ship is aiming to pass 50 yards off my beam at 18 kts, I'm not only going to watch it like a hawk, but I'm going to have my hand on the wheel and my escape route planned. And that's assuming we've talked on VHF, I'm certain they know I'm there, and I'm willing to accept a close passing. Any one of those criteria aren't met, and I'm exercising my right to make more searoom.

The whole "there's nuthin' he coulda done" argument is a cop-out. He shouldn't have allowed the ferry to get that close in the first place. What if it was a burst hydraulic line, rather than helmsman error that put the rudder hard over? You say he only had 10 seconds or so to see that something was wrong, formulate a plan and react. I'm saying he only had 10 seconds to do that, because he wasn't paying attention and taking action before he got into extremis.

Sure you can't do anything if a drunk swerves across the yellow line at the last second, but if you're driving alongside a drunk swerving all over the place next to you for miles, then you should at least accept some of the blame when he inevitably collides with you.

PS. Last time I checked the CG doesn't apportion blame - they say who did or didn't do what, but apportionment is usually left to the courts.
Call BS all you like. You don't cruise these waters and I do most weeks out of the year and have been passed by the Hyak probably 100 times, so with respect, you haven't a clue. In 40 years in these waters, I have never been hailed by a ferry with their intent. The next time one passes me within 100 yards, I'll take a picture for you.
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Old 19-11-2013, 22:24   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post

As you calculated, the ferry would have travelled but 300' from the point it turned to Tasya. Although the amount of turn was never discussed in the report, I don't think it was a 90 turn; therefore the actual CPA had the ferry maintained its original course would have been considerably less than 300'. Now if you're going to tell me that ferries have passed you at less than 100 yards, in a channel over a half-mile wide, while going 18 kts, without so much as a "howdya do" over VHF, then I'm gonna call BS.
I can tell you, if a 2700 ton ship is aiming to pass 50 yards off my beam at 18 kts, I'm not only going to watch it like a hawk, but I'm going to have my hand on the wheel and my escape route planned. And that's assuming we've talked on VHF, I'm certain they know I'm there, and I'm willing to accept a close passing. Any one of those criteria aren't met, and I'm exercising my right to make more searoom.

The whole "there's nuthin' he coulda done" argument is a cop-out. He shouldn't have allowed the ferry to get that close in the first place. What if it was a burst hydraulic line, rather than helmsman error that put the rudder hard over? You say he only had 10 seconds or so to see that something was wrong, formulate a plan and react. I'm saying he only had 10 seconds to do that, because he wasn't paying attention and taking action before he got into extremis.

Sure you can't do anything if a drunk swerves across the yellow line at the last second, but if you're driving alongside a drunk swerving all over the place next to you for miles, then you should at least accept some of the blame when he inevitably collides with you.

PS. Last time I checked the CG doesn't apportion blame - they say who did or didn't do what, but apportionment is usually left to the courts.
Agreed, the option for the sailboat was earlier reaction and more caution in the vicinity of the ferries not to lay blame in his direction. That level of caution places a large burden on the small boat but would ensure a higher level of safety. Easy to say in hindsight.
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Old 19-11-2013, 22:32   #64
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

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The captain's statement that the struck vessel was crossing her bow from starboard to port is, as you say, a relative judgment since at the time the ferry was turning from port to starboard. It is also a pathetic effort to suggest that the sailboat was responsible for the collision while making herself out to be a hero and deserves contempt. Her career as a ferry boat captain should be over on that basis alone.

I sometimes strive to be 'diplomatic'...
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Old 19-11-2013, 22:42   #65
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

Confining my question to this specific ferry route but not the subject accident; does the ferry use waypoints? Operationally it may be good to know.
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Old 20-11-2013, 06:40   #66
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
Call BS all you like. You don't cruise these waters and I do most weeks out of the year and have been passed by the Hyak probably 100 times, so with respect, you haven't a clue. In 40 years in these waters, I have never been hailed by a ferry with their intent. The next time one passes me within 100 yards, I'll take a picture for you.
I don't cruise those waters currently, but I spent most of my career on the water on the West Coast. Most of my interactions were with BC Ferries, but I don't imagine they operate much differently in WA. Go ahead and get me a picture of a ferry passing you at top speed, within 100 yards. I'm waiting, but not holding my breath.
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Old 20-11-2013, 08:09   #67
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

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Originally Posted by Richard5 View Post
Confining my question to this specific ferry route but not the subject accident; does the ferry use waypoints? Operationally it may be good to know.
No waypoints. The passages are too narrow in places and there is too much traffic. The vessels are pretty maneuverable, so steering around traffic is commonplace, and necessary if incidents like this are to be avoided.
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Old 20-11-2013, 08:18   #68
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
I don't cruise those waters currently, but I spent most of my career on the water on the West Coast. Most of my interactions were with BC Ferries, but I don't imagine they operate much differently in WA. Go ahead and get me a picture of a ferry passing you at top speed, within 100 yards. I'm waiting, but not holding my breath.
Oh, I get it. You've been on a B.C. ferry so that familiarizes you with WSF routes. Kind of like staying at a Holiday Inn, I suppose, and explains why you feel competent to pontificate about a subject you know zero about.

Thatcher Pass, around Upright Head, through Wasp Passage, between Brown and San Juan Islands at Friday Harbor are four places off the top of my mind where it is either impossible to avoid coming within a football field of a ferry, or where with normal boating traffic on a nice summer day that one could avoid coming within that distance to a ferry even if you wanted to. The simply fact that this accident occurred when a ferry that was likely within that distance turned the wrong way should be a clue that just close passings are quite normal.

How BC ferries operate vs how WSF ferries operate might be meaningful if they operated in the same waters. They don't, so again your point is, well, off point.
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Old 20-11-2013, 20:53   #69
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
Oh, I get it. You've been on a B.C. ferry so that familiarizes you with WSF routes. Kind of like staying at a Holiday Inn, I suppose, and explains why you feel competent to pontificate about a subject you know zero about.

Thatcher Pass, around Upright Head, through Wasp Passage, between Brown and San Juan Islands at Friday Harbor are four places off the top of my mind where it is either impossible to avoid coming within a football field of a ferry, or where with normal boating traffic on a nice summer day that one could avoid coming within that distance to a ferry even if you wanted to. The simply fact that this accident occurred when a ferry that was likely within that distance turned the wrong way should be a clue that just close passings are quite normal.

How BC ferries operate vs how WSF ferries operate might be meaningful if they operated in the same waters. They don't, so again your point is, well, off point.
Does being so patronizing and arrogant come naturally, or do you have to work at it?

Well I suppose the Gulf Islands are entirely unlike the San Juans
And BC Ferries, operating similarly sized vessels, with similar manoeuvring characteristics and similar constraints (passenger comfort, non-secured cargo, etc) would operate entirely unlike WSF

I didn't say I never met a WSF boat, just that I've dealt with more BC ferries. I spent a decade and a half driving vessels of all sizes up to 20,000 tonnes around the Gulf and San Juan Islands, so I'm reasonably familiar with the area. There's well over half-mile of safe water around Upright Head, Thatcher Pass is nearly half-mile wide, and if you're suggesting ferries travel at 18 kts through Friday Hbr or the narrows of Wasp Passage, you're barking.

I don't know you well enough to assert what you know zilch about, but I have a strong suspicion that you haven't fully developed an appreciation for distance at sea. You wouldn't be alone; most people under or overestimate ranges by large margins. Anyway, I'll await your photographic evidence. If it helps you, 100 yards would show on your radar as 0.05 NM.
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Old 20-11-2013, 21:10   #70
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

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Does being so patronizing and arrogant come naturally, or do you have to work at it?

Well I suppose the Gulf Islands are entirely unlike the San Juans
And BC Ferries, operating similarly sized vessels, with similar manoeuvring characteristics and similar constraints (passenger comfort, non-secured cargo, etc) would operate entirely unlike WSF
Actually, the bulk of BC ferry traffic is carried on vessels twice the length and twice the tonnage of the largest WSF system boats, so perhaps you are not as familiar with these vessels as you would have some believe.

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I didn't say I never met a WSF boat, just that I've dealt with more BC ferries. I spent a decade and a half driving vessels of all sizes up to 20,000 tonnes around the Gulf and San Juan Islands, so I'm reasonably familiar with the area. There's well over half-mile of safe water around Upright Head, Thatcher Pass is nearly half-mile wide, and if you're suggesting ferries travel at 18 kts through Friday Hbr or the narrows of Wasp Passage, you're barking.
I don't remember commenting on the speed of WSF vessels when passing by at 100 yards or so, but if you are familiar with Wasp Passage as you say you are, you would know it is almost impossible to not pass safely within 100 yards of vessels in the same mile long passage. And the maximum sea room of the other areas I mentioned is hardly the point. The point is that if you place 15 boats between Upright Head and Shaw Island and insert a ferry among them, then yes, the ferry will be passing by vessels quite close.

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I don't know you well enough to assert what you know zilch about, but I have a strong suspicion that you haven't fully developed an appreciation for distance at sea. You wouldn't be alone; most people under or overestimate ranges by large margins. Anyway, I'll await your photographic evidence. If it helps you, 100 yards would show on your radar as 0.05 NM.
What was that you said about patronizing and arrogant?
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Old 20-11-2013, 21:13   #71
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

L,

Please use personal messaging if you want to argue.
This will just get yet another thread shut down.

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Old 20-11-2013, 21:58   #72
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
What was that you said about patronizing and arrogant?
Since you are apparently unaware of yourself...
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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
you haven't a clue..
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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
Oh, I get it. You've been on a B.C. ferry so that familiarizes you with WSF routes. Kind of like staying at a Holiday Inn, I suppose, and explains why you feel competent to pontificate about a subject you know zero about.
The Dale Carnegie training really shows

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
Actually, the bulk of BC ferry traffic is carried on vessels twice the length and twice the tonnage of the largest WSF system boats, so perhaps you are not as familiar with these vessels as you would have some believe.
You really are obtuse - while by sheer number, you could say the bulk of car/passenger traffic travels across the Strait of Georgia, BC Ferries operates a lot of smaller vessels on a lot of inter-island routes - all comparable with WSF operations. Perhaps if you read through the whole Wikipedia article, you'd understand that.

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
I don't remember commenting on the speed of WSF vessels when passing by at 100 yards or so, but if you are familiar with Wasp Passage as you say you are, you would know it is almost impossible to not pass safely within 100 yards of vessels in the same mile long passage. And the maximum sea room of the other areas I mentioned is hardly the point. The point is that if you place 15 boats between Upright Head and Shaw Island and insert a ferry among them, then yes, the ferry will be passing by vessels quite close.
Go back and read the post, about which you said I didn't have a clue. I stated clearly "Now if you're going to tell me that ferries have passed you at less than 100 yards, in a channel over a half-mile wide, while going 18 kts, without so much as a "howdya do" over VHF, then I'm gonna call BS." Passing at close distances to a ferry at slow speed in a harbour or through a narrow channel is not comparable to the subject situation.
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