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Old 15-11-2013, 10:53   #31
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

Taysa on the Hard in PT

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Old 15-11-2013, 11:23   #32
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

Wrong turn caused ferry to hit sailboat in September, report says | Seattle Times Newspaper
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November 14, 2013 at 6:36 AM
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I spoke with the captain of the pleasure boat that was first on the scene, who literally rescued the guy from the cold water. He told me that when asked what he was doing when the ferry collided with him his answer was "listening to music down below". While I don't excuse the gross negligence from the first mate, who's job IS to drive the ferry, I feel like each party carries responsibility. Personally, I would never leave the helm that close to a ferry route, especiall in a boat with as little maneuverability as a small sailboat."
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Old 15-11-2013, 12:14   #33
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

These are my home waters as they are to Taysa. He admitted to passing the ferry as it was docked at Lopez and was aware that it was probably going to be bearing down on him soon. At 5 knots you can't dodge very quickly so we tend to try to stay out of the middle of the channel. That being said, he wasn't watching, which could be considered negligent but the burden was on the overtaking vessel.

I question whether the command to turn left or right would have made a difference in avoiding the collision at that moment. Was there enough time to perform the manuever at all? How much of the blame can be on the helmsman vs the captain? The charge seems to be that they were not aware of the situation at hand.
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Old 15-11-2013, 12:25   #34
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

I find this quote from the link that Main posted. Informing

Quote:
This doesn't ring true at all.
If "Hervey told Whaley the Hyak was getting close to the sailboat" and the captain ordered her to “come left and blow the whistle if you feel it is necessary.”, why would Hervey turn toward a boat she was looking at, even if she didn't know port from starboard, or her right from her left?
SailNet Community - View Single Post - sailboat and ferry collide!

I also use this channel 4 times a year for the 18 years.

Lloyd
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Old 15-11-2013, 15:49   #35
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

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Originally Posted by perchance View Post
During my service aboard a destroyer escort we would often hang out in the wheel house, which was, incidentally below decks and not on the bridge. The command from the bridge would be something like Port 15 and the helmsman would repeat it back to the bridge as "Port 15 aye sir". when the maneuver was complete the helmsman would say "15 degrees of port wheel on sir" This was clearly a method of ensuring that the helmsman heard and understood the command and carried it out accordingly.
If this method was adopted on commercial vessels incidents like the one mentioned above might possibly be avoided.
What makes you believe that this is not done on commercial ships?
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Old 15-11-2013, 16:08   #36
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
I take it you've never been on the bridge of a large ship.
When I give a helm order, it is specific and direct; I check the rudder indicator and that the bow of the ship moves the correct way. I know immediately if the helmsman turns the wrong way and I can correct it immediately. I also know from experience that helmsmen do sometimes turn the wrong way - sometimes its fatigue, or the fog of war, brain-fart, whatever - it happens; people are fallible. This happens when a specific helm order is given, so it's not hard to imagine when given a non-specific direction, what other sources of confusion might be added to the list above - especially for an inexperienced person in the process of learning new skills.
The captain had the conn, not the helmsman. The captain was responsible to take safe avoiding action, not the helmsman. I don't for a minute believe the helmsman doesn't know the difference between left and right, and I suspect you don't really believe that either. She should have been closely supervised while apprenticing, not left to herself to make an anti-collision determination that's way above her pay-grade and experience level. I'd give her the benefit of the doubt.
All very true.

But I feel there should be some clarification with regards to the role of the bridge crews on WSF boats. I am NOT a WSF employee, but have spent quite a bit of time in their wheelhouses.

The Quartermaster is basically the senior un-licensed deck crewmember and works solely in the wheelhouse. They are responsible for steering and for "setting-up" the active wheelhouse before each trip (get the radars going, call VTS, switch the nav lights, etc). They have to have very good familiarization of the boat and the route and oftentimes (in good weather/daylight/light traffic) will just "drive the boat" with the Master or Chief Mate supervising. In short, these guys are not just mere helmsmen - they're expected to be full members of the bridge team. Of course, the Master or Chief Mate (who are the two deck officers that rotate the conn during a watch) retain full authority and as conditions change or permit, they will issue direct orders. Traditionally, at WSF, Quartermaster was the position one would work in while taking classes and testing for a mate's license, then moving-up when a position opened. Many use the time as Quartermaster to also obtain their pilotage (which all WSF C/M's and Masters have).

The addition of second mates on this class of vessel is relatively new at WSF. Only the 5 larger boats in the fleet have had them in the past. This position does NOT regularly stand a wheelhouse watch and you oftentimes see them on the car deck directing traffic and then handling matters in the passenger cabin. Of course, since they are licensed, they do get time in the wheelhouse to train and that seems to be what was happening on the Hyak on this particular day.

What I'm really curious about is whether she (the 2/M) had only been at WSF for nine months or just as a 2/M for nine months. WSF has pretty much always promoted in house and an outside hiring (especially as a mate) is quite unusual. Like I said, most mates there worked Quartermaster for some time before being promoted so they should all be amply qualified helmsmen.
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Old 16-11-2013, 08:05   #37
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

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Originally Posted by Watermann View Post
What I'm really curious about is whether she (the 2/M) had only been at WSF for nine months or just as a 2/M for nine months. WSF has pretty much always promoted in house and an outside hiring (especially as a mate) is quite unusual. Like I said, most mates there worked Quartermaster for some time before being promoted so they should all be amply qualified helmsmen.
Interesting points. If the report is grammatically accurate, then I believe the 2/M was with WSF for 9 months, during which time she has been a helmsman occasionally on other routes. But even if she had crawled up the hawsepipe at WSF, and had been a QM previously, nine months away from that job can make a person a little rusty. While a total newbie is more likely to get left-right dyslexia, I've seen highly experienced QMs do it too. I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with rustiness - I think it more likely that she was distracted. The way I read it, the 2/M had just docked the ferry at Lopez, under close supervision - I reckon that's about the most exciting manoeuvre for an experienced ferry-driver, let alone a trainee. So the 2/M was probably still processing that; rewinding and replaying it in her mind. On top of that, she probably still had all the nervous energy and residual adrenaline from the rush of doing the docking. I remember how that is, from when I was a trainee, and I saw that in the people I trained. Anyone who has been there, knows what I mean.
To me a trainee is expected to make mistakes. The trainer should be aware of that and only give the trainee enough of the reins so that they can make a mistake without endangering the ship. You don't the fire a trainee when they make a mistake. IMHO.
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Old 16-11-2013, 12:00   #38
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

Down below listening to music?
WHOEEE!!!!
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Old 16-11-2013, 13:52   #39
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

Here's the way I see it, the captain is on the phone with a tug and tow, they agree on passing port to port, if they are on a collision course which seems to be the case, the ferry would alter course to stbd as well as the tug inorder to pass each other safely port to port.
This is probably what went through the helmsmans mind when the order was given. The fact is the radio message was heard by those in the wheel house. They just forgot about the little guy in the sailboat along side or just assumed they were far enough away.
I was out there in the same channel when this happened. The weather was not as clear as it sounds. It was a grey, dark day. I think that the sailboat didn't show up very well (obviously) what with a dark blue hull.
The Hyak, trying to avoid a potential collision with the tug & tow was 1st and formost on the helmsmans mind which is why the helmsman turned right instead of left to avoid the sailboat he wasn't aware of..........???
"Situational awareness" " failure to communicate" = **** happens!
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Old 16-11-2013, 14:00   #40
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

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Originally Posted by Geoduck View Post
Here's the way I see it, the captain is on the phone with a tug and tow, they agree on passing port to port, if they are on a collision course which seems to be the case, the ferry would alter course to stbd as well as the tug inorder to pass each other safely port to port.
This is probably what went through the helmsmans mind when the order was given. The fact is the radio message was heard by those in the wheel house. They just forgot about the little guy in the sailboat along side or just assumed they were far enough away.
I was out there in the same channel when this happened. The weather was not as clear as it sounds. It was a grey, dark day. I think that the sailboat didn't show up very well (obviously) what with a dark blue hull.
The Hyak, trying to avoid a potential collision with the tug & tow was 1st and formost on the helmsmans mind which is why the helmsman turned right instead of left to avoid the sailboat he wasn't aware of..........???
"Situational awareness" " failure to communicate" = **** happens!
The helmsman Hervey

Quote:
"Hervey told Whaley the Hyak was getting close to the sailboat" and the captain ordered her to “come left and blow the whistle if you feel it is necessary.”, why would Hervey turn toward a boat she was looking at, even if she didn't know port from starboard, or her right from her left?
And her reply to the to Whaley after the command, "Oh you mean my other Left"

Read the report.

Lloyd
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Old 16-11-2013, 14:15   #41
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

Quote:
Originally Posted by senormechanico View Post
Down below listening to music?
WHOEEE!!!!
So far I have read three different stories as reported to first responders by Jack Gray the sailboat operator.

Quote:
The boater Jack Gray wrote this description of the collision:
"I heard a loud crunch. Turning around I saw the ferry hull coming over my stern and everything growing dark and flooding...like a slow motion horror film."
In an email to boating club members, Jack Gray described his experience last Friday afternoon when his 25-foot Fisher sailboat was struck by the Hyak, a WSF Super-Class ferry. He was enroute to Deer Harbor.
"I had been fogged in at James Island after crossing the Straits a couple days earlier. As Friday approached, skies were clearing, so I set out for your gathering. I made it half way, as now you have seen.
I've been sailing these waters for over 50 yrs, and never considered the State Ferries to be a hazard - until now.
It literally came up from behind, without horn, and quickly while I was at the wheel listening to traffic and making some radar screen adjustments just for testing.
I was so surprised to come out alive, after feeling so close to death.
I remember seeing ferry at the Lopez dock about a mile away. While at the helm in my pilot house and trying to adjust my radar functions, I heard a loud crunch.
Turning around I saw the ferry hull coming over my stern and everything growing dark and flooding...like a slow motion horror film..."
Gray and his dog were rescued by people onboard another boat. His boat sank as it was being towed.

I think the the ferry and the tug and tow and the other sail boat were all on watch in collision avoidance mode. Gray was not concerned as he seems to have a disregard for the WA Ferries. He was not standing a proper watch for the circumstances. His distractions caused his vessel to veer into the path of the Ferry.



The normal Helmsman on the Ferry was standing watch on the opposite end of the commanding bridge, and failed to report Jack grays vessel, bc he didn't feel it was a concern.


The Captain had her nose in the radar, said radar is located high enough that the Jack Gray vessel may of not registered as a consistent target.


These facts set up the impending collision, by error of the Ferry Bridge, and the fact the Jack Gray was not on watch, he could not thereby take any action as required under the Color Regs to avoid the collision.


If Jack had been on a proper watch I think things would of had a different outcome.


Lloyd
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Old 16-11-2013, 14:17   #42
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

I read the report
I'm just bring up a senario that might have happened.
I also read some where the helmsman was trained on a tiller! Which might account to the wrong turn, I've seen this one before!
Like I said , **** happens!
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Old 16-11-2013, 14:40   #43
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

OK, I think I read every comment. Was the ferry making whistle signals for reduced visibility?? They were the burdened vessel due to overtaking? If so they are totally at fault! Nothing else to discuss!
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Old 16-11-2013, 15:20   #44
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

From the actual accident reort to the USCG, made by the Captain.

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CG~2692 Response Question #44. Hyak Collision 9-13-2013

On September 13, 2013 while traversing from Lopez Island to Orcas Island the MV Hyak was in a collision with a sailboat.

The sailboat was under power and not under sail at the time. At control of the helm at that time was a Second Mate, Who was in training. As the MV Hyak backed out of the Lopez dock I gave instructions to the Second Mate to set a course of 315 degrees. This course was a normal and safe course tor the vessel traffic at that time. We were building speed at full-ahead.

The tug and tow Rosario was on an easterly course in
Harney Channel approximately abeam Hudson Point. I made passing
arrangements to go port to port with the Rosario. There was also a sailboat, (later to be known and identified with the vessel name Norma Rae) under sail tacking toward Orcas southeasterly of the Tug Rosario at a distance of approximately a mile and a quarter from the Hyak that was heading 325 degrees nearly the same direction as my vessel on the port hand side.

The vessel on my starboard side (Incident Vessel) was a sailboat of smaller length approximately 25 feet under power (no sails visible) that was also heading towards Orcas Island. The vessel was one half mile west of Foster Point at the entrance of Harney Channel heading approximately 315 degrees at a distance of approximately one and and
eighth mile from Hyak.

The incident vessels distance from Foster·Point, proximity to shoal water on its' current northwest heading, prevented passing this vessel on anything but the port side. We had clear passage through both the two small vessels, leaving one to port and the other to starboard on opposite sides of the channel. This was communicated to the second mate(helmsman).

At the time we left the dock I had no concerns as we had clear passage through these vessels. The small vessels were staggered, one forward to port and one forward to starboard. The incident vessel under power to starboard was more southeasterly than the sailboat Norma Rae under sail, still going the same direction as my vessel. This left my vessel and the two small vessels to, the Rosario's port hand side. The way that the boats were configured and traveling at this time still posed no. hazards to any of the vessels~ As we were starting to overtaking the small vessel on 'the Hyak's starboard side, the helmsman (second mate) said small boat is getting. closer. I gave the order to "Come left, and blow the whistle if you feel it is necessary". I was training the Second Mate as helmsmen, and as such, provided her direction in how to deal with this scenario.

The Second Mate did not blow the whistle at this time. I looked over to check the Second Mate (Helmsman) to ensure that she had followed my directions; and saw that She had hard right rudder on. I immediately, in a raised voice said, Hard .left rudder, you're on hard right rudder!"' She responded

"Oh, you mean my other left." She then went full left rudder,

Given the lack of the whistle, and the fact that I saw she had not followed my directions regarding the rudder direction, I immediately took action to attempt to avoid the impending collision and to minimize any damage.

I ran between the radar and the steering console and saw the small boat turning to port to cross our bow. I knocked the second mate (helmsman) out of the way and went full astern, I sheered the rudders to veer away from vessel.

I looked to see where the small boat was and saw it disappear under our starboard rub rail. The regular quartermaster was watching the small boat, and I heard it hit.
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Old 16-11-2013, 18:11   #45
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Re: WSF Hyak collision update.

fairly cut and dried,

insufficient situational awareness, failure to maintain a safe speed, poor helm commands and incorrect helm responses.

cut and dried to me.

dave
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