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Old 15-02-2019, 12:18   #151
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Re: Will there be a glut of boats for sale once Baby Boomers retire from boating?

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Originally Posted by Chotu View Post
The trends seem accurate as described here, but why are all the marinas full or on wait list?

Maybe the percentage of the population interested is shrinking, but the total number of boaters seems to be increasing to me.
All depends on where you are! Up here on the great lakes I haven't seen a wait list for decades. To the point where I've switched marinas a few times and never even bothered to ask if there was a wait list. I've just called up and got a slip for the season. Boating in the great lakes is definitely on the decline.
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Old 15-02-2019, 12:25   #152
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Re: Will there be a glut of boats for sale once Baby Boomers retire from boating?

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
The Millennial generation is now larger than the Baby Boomers. It’s not about the numbers. It’s about basic economics. It’s not being pessimistic, or optimistic, it’s about recognizing reality.



Boat sales and boating participation numbers are definitely more complex than simple wealth economics. There are, as has been noted, real shifts in the way people choose to spend their leisure time. The fact that more people are working longer hours now, with less paid vacation time, is another factor. Or that more and more work is now done in financially precarious relationships (the so called “gig” economy) with less security … all of this factors into it.



The Millennial generation will outnumber the Baby Boomers because the Baby Boomers are dying off, not because their overall numbers were bigger. Part of the equation is that you have a smaller generation (Gen x) replacing a larger one (Baby Boomers), followed by the Millennials. Yes, those numbers do matter.



Basic economics is about the numbers, as well as a sound interpretation of them.
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Old 15-02-2019, 12:41   #153
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Re: Will there be a glut of boats for sale once Baby Boomers retire from boating?

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Thanks Gord. Are you saying that in a span of three years the show went from dominate sail to dominate power? What happened between 1984 and 87 that would cause this sudden shift?

I’ve been attending the boat show since the early 00’s, and in my estimation the (small) floor space dedicated to sail hasn’t noticeably changed over that time.
somewhere around that time there was a really bad recession in Canada. I remember going to shows as early as 1981. the powerboats used to be in a smaller venue off by themselves. Sail was king We used to have:

Bayfield
C&C
CS
Macgregor
Cornish
Lugger
JJ Taylor
Nonsuch
Whitby
Catalina
Hunter
Siruis
Hobie
Edel
Tanzer

And those are just the boats I remember going on!

This year
Catalina
Beneteau
Hanse

Huge difference!
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Old 15-02-2019, 13:18   #154
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Re: Will there be a glut of boats for sale once Baby Boomers retire from boating?

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Originally Posted by kmacdonald View Post
There already is a glut of old boats on the market. A lot of them will never sell. Newer (say 10 years old or less) boats in good condition are scarce. I guess not many new boats were sold during the financial crisis. No data to back it up, just my observation.
Yes, I agree with this. An older boat in bad condition, or a pulled-apart boat, or a boat made of steel or ferrocement (or wood) are not going to sell very easily at any price.

An old boat in good condition, with good gear that has been well-maintained, you might get a bite at a reasonable price. You will not get your money back for anything like what you have spent on it. I have seen obsessed people listing every dollar they spent, pages and pages of stuff...basically, it's gone, you had your fun, you need to move on...

Imho, by reasonable price, right now for a 1970s or 1980s boat in excellent condition <25 feet <$5K Canadian; <30 feet about $7-10K Canadian; <35 feet about $15-20K Canadian. I've not seen enough boats bigger than that to judge much, perhaps <$40K for 37 foot, <$50K for < 45 foot.

Some exceptions for things that have a fan following, e.g. classic wood, Lyle Hess, or even Hans Christian-type Taiwan build.

Deduct about $10K if it has a gas engine, sorry to say. Bad sails, bad exterior or interior appearance, bad smell...deduct whatever. Teak decks are probably going to make it hard to sell.

Buyers: make a lowball offer. The boat is costing the owner upward of $2K per year just sitting around. If they are difficult about it, move on.

Sellers: Clean the sucker up a bit and make a low price. Get it off your hands before it deteriorates. There are some shameful sights in our marina.

If the boat is in bad condition, pulled apart etc, give it away. You might be lucky and find someone to take it off your hands.
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Old 15-02-2019, 14:29   #155
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Re: Will there be a glut of boats for sale once Baby Boomers retire from boating?

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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
The Millennial generation will outnumber the Baby Boomers because the Baby Boomers are dying off, not because their overall numbers were bigger. Part of the equation is that you have a smaller generation (Gen x) replacing a larger one (Baby Boomers), followed by the Millennials. Yes, those numbers do matter.

Basic economics is about the numbers, as well as a sound interpretation of them.
You’re the one who introduced generation size. If your perspective were correct, then we’d see car and boat numbers approaching the BB numbers. This is not what is happening.

Agreed on your last point.
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Old 18-02-2019, 18:07   #156
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Re: Will there be a glut of boats for sale once Baby Boomers retire from boating?

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John Harries on the Morgan's Cloud website (https://www.morganscloud.com/about/), made a serious effort at one point to build a no frills, long-distance cruising sailboat for no more than $100,000 (as I recall). There were a series of articles on it, from construction to options (almost none). Although you may be focused more on power boats, it makes for interesting reading. Not sure what, if anything, came of the project, but I believe it attracted a number of serious prospective buyers. Some of the website articles are behind a paywall but it's well worth a subscription, imo. As a sailboat owner, I've generally found it to be one of the best resources on the internet actually.
OK now THAT'S what I'm talking about. It's too bad the story is behind a paywall. That would be an interesting discussion.

I just returned from the Miami Yacht Show where Leopard was selling new powercats for less than half the price of comparable sized monohull yachts. We assumed they were used at first based on the displayed price, so I asked the salesman how many hours were on the engines. He said they were new, but they truly were basic white fiberglass and gelcoat nearly everywhere. But one could add custom designed cushions and color schemes at those prices. 51 feet, 25 foot beam, massive salon and flybridge, 4 Queen/double bedrooms, plus one layout included 1 more single bed extended into the bow points on each pontoon for a total of sleeps 10, not including the sofa lounge or table in the salon. Mind blown.
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Old 18-02-2019, 18:33   #157
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Re: Will there be a glut of boats for sale once Baby Boomers retire from boating?

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You're blinded by the crappy economy everywhere but in the USA, where the economy happens to be roaring ahead like it hasn't in the past 40 years thanks to Trump. Maybe Canada should elect it's own "Trump" like Italy did last year.

I see opportunity, possibility and prosperity, you seem to only see gloom and doom.
Amen to that! The economy is blazing here in the US despite the best efforts of our media to spread fake news. Business are desperately placing Help Wanted signs in their yards and windows. I feel sorry for how badly the rest of the world is being fooled by our media. I gotta believe that it's going to spread to the rest of the globe. Ironically, Trump might need to forget about the wall just so we can get enough ppl to fill these jobs! Let 'em in!

Values have changed. Younger people are more likely to value $1000 smart phones, nice cars, bling, cheap hedonism, travel that doesn't require fixing and dealing with old broken boats, etc.
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Old 18-02-2019, 18:41   #158
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Re: Will there be a glut of boats for sale once Baby Boomers retire from boating?

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Originally Posted by Joe Deepwater View Post
OK now THAT'S what I'm talking about. It's too bad the story is behind a paywall. That would be an interesting discussion.

I just returned from the Miami Yacht Show where Leopard was selling new powercats for less than half the price of comparable sized monohull yachts. We assumed they were used at first based on the displayed price, so I asked the salesman how many hours were on the engines. He said they were new, but they truly were basic white fiberglass and gelcoat nearly everywhere. But one could add custom designed cushions and color schemes at those prices. 51 feet, 25 foot beam, massive salon and flybridge, 4 Queen/double bedrooms, plus one layout included 1 more single bed extended into the bow points on each pontoon for a total of sleeps 10, not including the sofa lounge or table in the salon. Mind blown.

How much were these??
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Old 18-02-2019, 18:46   #159
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Re: Will there be a glut of boats for sale once Baby Boomers retire from boating?

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Amen to that! The economy is blazing here in the US despite the best efforts of our media to spread fake news. Business are desperately placing Help Wanted signs in their yards and windows. I feel sorry for how badly the rest of the world is being fooled by our media. I gotta believe that it's going to spread to the rest of the globe. Ironically, Trump might need to forget about the wall just so we can get enough ppl to fill these jobs! Let 'em in!

Values have changed. Younger people are more likely to value $1000 smart phones, nice cars, bling, cheap hedonism, travel that doesn't require fixing and dealing with old broken boats, etc.
Have shared this thread with my young millennial girlfriend.

They, on average, don't know how to fix boats (or anything else). That's one major factor. They pay to have things fixed. She's certain that issue is just as important as lack of excess funds for truly expensive toys like boats.

I mean a $1000 phone is truly nothing. A barnacle compared to what boats cost.
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Old 18-02-2019, 18:53   #160
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Re: Will there be a glut of boats for sale once Baby Boomers retire from boating?

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I'm sure you're aware of the Rules of this forum, are you not?


This is a totally uncalled for comment.


As Canadian Permanent Resident, I request you to cease and desist in this nonsense.
As a fellow Canadian, I’d like to see someone more like Trump in charge to improve the Canadian economy... just like the conservative the Italians elected last year. Maybe more boats would then be sold in Canada if that was to happen.
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Old 18-02-2019, 18:57   #161
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Re: Will there be a glut of boats for sale once Baby Boomers retire from boating?

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Originally Posted by Joe Deepwater View Post
OK now THAT'S what I'm talking about. It's too bad the story is behind a paywall. That would be an interesting discussion.

I just returned from the Miami Yacht Show where Leopard was selling new powercats for less than half the price of comparable sized monohull yachts. We assumed they were used at first based on the displayed price, so I asked the salesman how many hours were on the engines. He said they were new, but they truly were basic white fiberglass and gelcoat nearly everywhere. But one could add custom designed cushions and color schemes at those prices. 51 feet, 25 foot beam, massive salon and flybridge, 4 Queen/double bedrooms, plus one layout included 1 more single bed extended into the bow points on each pontoon for a total of sleeps 10, not including the sofa lounge or table in the salon. Mind blown.
The Morgan's Cloud was a 40ft boat for $200,000, not $100,000 as posted.

While not "blue water" did you see the new 35' sailboat I posted for $55,000 (includes sails)? A middle class couple with some budgetary skills could afford that and a house (both financed) in a lot of areas of the country.

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Old 18-02-2019, 18:58   #162
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Re: Will there be a glut of boats for sale once Baby Boomers retire from boating?

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How much were these??
Yes, please do tell. I will buy one of they are half the price of a comparable monohull.
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Old 18-02-2019, 19:09   #163
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Re: Will there be a glut of boats for sale once Baby Boomers retire from boating?

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
You’re the one who introduced generation size. If your perspective were correct, then we’d see car and boat numbers approaching the BB numbers. This is not what is happening.

Agreed on your last point.
Mike,

Attend a boat show and see for yourself.... the attendance is old, a bunch of old guys and very few women. Younger people are simply not interested in grandpa’s hobbies like boating. I was at the New England show last week. Thousands of old guys looking at booths and boats populated by more old guys.
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Old 18-02-2019, 19:19   #164
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Re: Will there be a glut of boats for sale once Baby Boomers retire from boating?

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$72K would be a 100% margin. 50% margin over $36K cost = $18K margin or a selling price of $54K.
No, $72k is a 100% markup. But it's a 50% margin.
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Old 18-02-2019, 19:26   #165
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Re: Will there be a glut of boats for sale once Baby Boomers retire from boating?

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Mike,

Attend a boat show and see for yourself.... the attendance is old, a bunch of old guys and very few women. Younger people are simply not interested in grandpa’s hobbies like boating. I was at the New England show last week. Thousands of old guys looking at booths and boats populated by more old guys.

Hard to argue with that. A decent house in a city where you can get work is north of 300K here in Canada and if you move anywhere close to Toronto 700K or Vancouver its higher. Rent in Toronto is 2000 a month. Buy a boat? With what? The young folk can barely make a go of it because wages are crap and its a gig economy. They can't afford a house and that comes long before a boat.


There is also no entrance into the sport. We used to race all the time and need 5 or 6 crew. 50 60 boats out for a wed night. 150 out for the weekend. Now your lucky to get 20 boats little boats out so where is the intro to sailing.


Folks don't know how to sail so they buy a power boat and go across the lake and back and find out it was $500. Boat never leaves the dock again.


Globalization has been great unless your trying to make a living.
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