Who will Buy the Boats?

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

I sincerely hope we don't all go to annual inspections. I'd much rather see a small fee when a boat is re titled. Then let that fee be earmarked for grinding up derelict boats.

Yes, it's always a double-edged sword when they try to "help". Soon it is over regulated and they hire people who have little knowledge of what to look for...case in point: While on my way to Mexico, I wanted to spend a week in the "A-9" anchorage in San Diego. I received an "inspection" from the Harbor Police. The guy claimed to have been there for 9 years and had done hundreds of inspections. He asked to see the center most area of the bilge and not the lowest most area. I thought, ok fine since it was where my integral water tank was and not the actual bilge. He said "Wow, a really dry bilge". Hmmm...well that might be because it's 5 feet from the sump, where there will always be 3"s of water. Then he claimed (and I don't believe) that he has never passed a boat first time around and I was lucky. He also wanted to see the expiration date on my PFD's....uh huh...ok.
The worst part he was training a young new hire. Oh well.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Yes, it's always a double-edged sword when they try to "help". Soon it is over regulated and they hire people who have little knowledge of what to look for...case in point: While on my way to Mexico, I wanted to spend a week in the "A-9" anchorage in San Diego. I received an "inspection" from the Harbor Police. The guy claimed to have been there for 9 years and had done hundreds of inspections. He asked to see the center most area of the bilge and not the lowest most area. I thought, ok fine since it was where my integral water tank was and not the actual bilge. He said "Wow, a really dry bilge". Hmmm...well that might be because it's 5 feet from the sump, where there will always be 3"s of water. Then he claimed (and I don't believe) that he has never passed a boat first time around and I was lucky. He also wanted to see the expiration date on my PFD's....uh huh...ok.
The worst part he was training a young new hire. Oh well.

Yep, typical government "help". Our money wasted and little return.

[Glenn.Brooks]

Frankly it's amazing to me that so many people on this forum and elsewhere think a well found $60 k boat, even a $30,000 boat is "unrealistically" priced and should be reduced to a "proper" $10,000 - $15,000 sales price, or less, - particularity the diligently maintained and well equipped boats. I am particularity amazed how many people think your hard earned investment belongs to them as a universal human right, and that you or I should sign over years of hard work and tens of thousands of dollars in continual equipment upgrades and repair, because they believe they are entitled to free lunch and pleasant days in paradise, and because they've seen some junker somewhere on the internet listed at a fraction of the price of your well found boat.

Perhaps we should all lobby to include a clause in marine sales agreements that says "seller agrees to refund 50% of sales price on payment of earnest money and remaining 50% of sales price, and pay brokers fee on closing, and further guarantee buyer a lifetime allowance of $1000/month to offset future depreciation, living expenses, alcohol purchases, and moorage".

Of well, the kiddies have been raised in a Me, Me society, believing they are entitled to everything you produce, and whatever you do is obsolete soon as it slides down the rails into the water.

What can we do except say: "No, stop begging."



Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[FollowingCs]

Originally Posted by Glenn.Brooks

Frankly it's amazing to me that so many people on this forum and elsewhere think a well found $60 k boat, even a $30,000 boat is "unrealistically" priced and should be reduced to a "proper" $10,000 - $15,000 sales price, or less, - particularity the diligently maintained and well equipped boats. I am particularity amazed how many people think your hard earned investment belongs to them as a universal human right, and that you or I should sign over years of hard work and tens of thousands of dollars in continual equipment upgrades and repair, because they believe they are entitled to free lunch and pleasant days in paradise, and because they've seen some junker somewhere on the internet listed at a fraction of the price of your well found boat.

Perhaps we should all lobby to include a clause in marine sales agreements that says "seller agrees to refund 50% of sales price on payment of earnest money and remaining 50% of sales price, and pay brokers fee on closing, and further guarantee buyer a lifetime allowance of $1000/month to offset future depreciation, living expenses, alcohol purchases, and moorage".

Of well, the kiddies have been raised in a Me, Me society, believing they are entitled to everything you produce, and whatever you do is obsolete soon as it slides down the rails into the water.

What can we do except say: "No, stop begging."

I'm not sure anybody is saying that, but I do think there are a good number of people on here who believe in living frugally. That includes buying a used boat in good condition from a 'motivated' seller. It's always hard to find these deals, but they are out there. I see them in Real Estate all the time, particularly around Estate sales. The children (usual all 50s and 60s) are splitting the proceeds 5 ways anyways, and they just want whatever money and be done with it, so they take a low offer. I've seen other siblings hold out for max dollars.


"Fair market value" is whatever the seller is willing to take, and whatever the buyer is willing to offer. That's it. It doesn't matter if you added granite counter tops or not, if no other house in the area has them - you ain't getting your money back out.

~FollowingCs~

[onestepcsy37]

Good post followingc's. I think glenn brooks is confusing bargaining and negotiating with entitlement. My wife, fortunately, is an accountant, so she understands that a sailboat is an expense, not an investment.

[CaptTL]

Originally Posted by Glenn.Brooks

Frankly it's amazing to me that so many people on this forum and elsewhere think a well found $60 k boat, even a $30,000 boat is "unrealistically" priced and should be reduced to a "proper" $10,000 - $15,000 sales price, or less, - particularity the diligently maintained and well equipped boats. I am particularity amazed how many people think your hard earned investment belongs to them as a universal human right, and that you or I should sign over years of hard work and tens of thousands of dollars in continual equipment upgrades and repair, because they believe they are entitled to free lunch and pleasant days in paradise, and because they've seen some junker somewhere on the internet listed at a fraction of the price of your well found boat.

You or anyone else selling a boat is under no obligation to sell at any price other than what you want for the boat. And the buyers are under no obligation to buy a boat at any price other than what they are willing to offer. That's the free market system and it works - if the government will stay out of it.

[SURV69]

Oh, well let's get silly.

NO ONE, but NO ONE can make another person sell a boat at less than any one else's asking price ... even if the price is unrealistic and even if no one wants the boat at the asking price.

I still see fine boats going for very fine prices and generally agree that people with money will pay good money for what they want.

Just like a well built gas-hog of a 1960's car, there is value in quality.

The vast majority of the boats sitting in failing cradles, with oil canned hulls, glazed and scratched over windows and seemingly rusty stainless screws are not selling because quite frankly the owners want to recover their costs of upgrades and maintenance through the years.

NO ONE, but NO ONE is going to match some idiot's price, just because the PO overspent on a bad dream.

SO ... with less boat buyers, in a market that has become overly gluttoned(sp), with boats that sit, and sit, and sit, and sit, and sit ... and sit ... but never and will never just go away, a seller's boat is likely to either become a grist mill around one's neck, or the seller has to just "walk", away and ... well ... whatever.

There's no value in a pile of shaped fiberglass that no one wants and any price.

At our own marina, there are about 15-20 boats listed for sale. Some have been listed for years. At the same time, there are easily twice that many, not really for sale cause the owner's given up trying to sell them.

If your boat's so well maintained with a great pedigree, what are you concerned about ... and why worry about this thread line?

[onestepcsy37]

Originally Posted by CaptTL

You or anyone else selling a boat is under no obligation to sell at any price other than what you want for the boat. And the buyers are under no obligation to buy a boat at any price other than what they are willing to offer. That's the free market system and it works - if the government will stay out of it.

Just like the stock market. During the trading day selling brokers are asking a price for a share and buying brokers are bidding a price for the share. Sometimes they settle on a price and sometimes they dont. BUT, at the end of the trading day the closing price for that share is the price that a broker is willing to pay (bid) and not the price that the seller thinks its worth (asked).

[Island Time O25]

The guy who runs the yard where my boat is wintered (which is also a pretty active boat junk yard) once told me that basically if the boat has no title, no engine and no trailer he has to charge many $100s, sometimes $1,000+ to take it off the owner's hands. Otherwise it's not worth to him anything and he does not want another derelict to take up valuable space at his yard. If it has any one of the 3 listed items he may charge less for taking it and if all three are present and both the trailer and the motor are in working shape he may even pay a few hundred bucks max. But that's it. His last few haul-ins which were insurance company totals, and for which ins co's paid him $2-3K to take off of their hands, were actually pretty decent boats which required TLC and some fiberglass work to go in the water. But to the yard owner they were worth in parts way more than as used old boats. He tells me he can get $3-5K+ for parts of a boat that will sell as is for $500-1,000 max if it'll sell at all.

As to the 70% decline in the number of people sailing I think the situation is even worse. Not as much due to the lower numbers but more to do with the mentality of the X, Y (or whatever number is assigned to them) generations. Most younger kids today expect to take a short ASA course to which they listen half-heartedly while texting to their buddies from class. And when faced with the reality of open water sailing whey are very perplexed as to why it is not the same as sailing they know on their online sailing simulation game. My friend who works at a sailing club tells me horror stories which happen there practically weekly if not more often of the disconnect between expectations and reality among these new (and not so new) sailors. There is a definite decline of "sailing culture" and greater reliance on gadgets, shortcuts and doodas which culminates in thinking that one is sure a great sailor if one buys the latest gear and clothes advertised in Sail magazine. And another evidence of this is the rapid growth of these sailing clubs which are basically shortcuts to sailing. Rather than being dedicated by buying and maintaining one's own boat (which is of course quite a commitment but makes one IMO a much better and responsible sailor) they are in and out for a few hours each week and off to some other pursuits. Which I guess is fine but to me the difference between owning one's own boat and joining such a club is akin to having a girlfriend/wife or going once a week to a hooker.

Connected to the above is the trend of motor boats now being much more popular than sailboats. And that the boat builders are stuck in mentality of a boat as a super luxury item with which to fleece its customers. Unfortunately there was never a Henry Ford in the boat industry (except may be MacGregor but that's not really an equivalent to a Model T more like an equivalent to a Columbia bicycle) to open it up to the masses and to make the new product both affordable and useful.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

Unfortunately there was never a Henry Ford in the boat industry (except may be MacGregor but that's not really an equivalent to a Model T more like an equivalent to a Columbia bicycle) to open it up to the masses and to make the new product both affordable and useful.

Actually there was a Henry Ford type in the powerboat industry. Orin Edson. Founder of Bayliner. Changed the industry and brought prices down significantly at that time.

Now today there is one product that the masses are going for and it gives me great pain to say this. PWC's. They outsell all other boats. Unfortunate but true.

I once owned a couple of $100 sailboats. They were styrofoam and had been purchased by a dealer for promotional purposes. Now there are small Hobie sailboats available today for just over $3000. I know they aren't cruising sailboats but that's the way you get kids started sailing on the lakes or in the harbors. So why PWC's over small sailboats? This is just a theory. People have limited time so they try to go fast. Sailing is more a leisurely activiey. There is also nothing going no to create excitement.

I just think the killer to the industry is the lack of time people and families have. Then when the economy is bad, it's very easy to say, "no" to boats. Why spend the inflated amount for something I can't use regularly?

[SURV69]

that in the present day of computers, instant information, 24/7 communications, T.V. dinners and faster, more fuel efficient cars, that people have less time for leisure ... real lay-back, Sunday in the park, sit in the shade, do nothing, think nothing but pleasant thoughts ... time.

I think that after all the many more things we can do because of what 35+ years of technology ... faster and more efficiently ... that the #1 thing technology and computers have done, is quite simply, to increase stress to a critical level.

Slow sailing, simple camping, playing tag or lying on the ground watching clouds ... or other similar activities help reduce stress.

The more popular toys and activities, continue to tax one's mind and sensibilities.

I pity the generations to come, who will probably be much more healthy in body and will probably live longer, but will probably suffer still more daily background stress and less "personal", connection to life.

[sailorboy1]

other that the size, I wonder why people think the boat market really is different than the car market

[Kenomac]

Here in the USA, with mostly dated sailboat designs to choose from and few interesting places to visit, the sailboat industry is looking more and more like the buggy whip industry as the sailors age and quit with few younger folks to take their place. Few anchorages if any, murky water.

In contrast, look towards Europe, where most of the cruisers I meet are younger, the boats are more interesting and stylish and there are thousands of interesting places to see. Anchorages everywhere, crystal clear water.

Heck... boating in general is just sexier over there... while here, 'seems like many just want to waste time on forum threads debating the benefits of retrofitting their marine heads with an outhouse.

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Heck... boating in general is just sexier over there.

Sure, if you think hipsters are sexy.

[a64pilot]

See I think there will be a resurgence in sailing, the rise in petroleum costs will drive it. With a little power boat on a good weekend of diving, I would go through 50 gls of gas or more. With my sailboat it's months before I go through 50 gls of Diesel.

Of course I thought the silly SUV craze would have died long ago too, based on fuel costs, but it hasn't.