What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by jackdale

Here is an example of a medical form that we ask students/crew to complete.

It is kept in the a sealed envelope in the chart table until the trip is completed and then destroyed.

I also ask students to disclose to the rest of the crew any medical problems that they have. I start by telling them I have had one episode of reflex fainting and I tell them how to deal with it. I also disclose that I take Tecta for for GERD, Gravol for motion sickness and a daily multi vitamin.

For ocean passages I want medical clearance from a physician.

I just passed a Transport Canada medical, but I will have a full medical with my family physician in the next couple of months as I am probably doing a couple of crossings this year. Regular dental checkups are also essential.

I also ask the crew to ensure that their tetanus shots are current.

Is it 100% effective? Nope. But I think it is due diligence.

Excellent!

So do you have them fill that out before or after they fly to your location?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Follow the logic that the skipper has "All" authority and you would support him fir knicking back someone for their colour or slanted eyes perhaps

Does this post mean you do not have 'All Authority' regarding Your boat..??

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Follow the logic that the skipper has "All" authority and you would support him fir knicking back someone for their colour or slanted eyes perhaps

Absolutely not. You are confusing the possession of authority with the manner of its exercise. Entirely different things. And indeed neither compels the observer to "support" anything in particular.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

Excellent!

So do you have them fill that out before or after they fly to your location?

For passages I want it beforehand. For coastal sailing once they are onboard is OK.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by jackdale

For passages I want it beforehand. For coastal sailing once they are onboard is OK.

That reminded me of a question I wanted to ask for a while, having been a voluntary crew on FL to New England deliveries a few times (all non stop) - does that trip qualifies as coastal or offshore, considering that we were 150-200mi out for a good portion of it?

On two occasions, I am glib to say, we shut the engine at Ft. Laud's New River inlet and only started it at the Cape Cod Canal entrance as you are not allowed to just sail through the Canal. The skipper on all these trips was a friend, with over 40+ years of very comprehensive marine experience, who takes on crew more on a hunch and personal knowledge of the person than some extensive written questionnaire. He says he had often been both pleasantly but more often unpleasantly surprised by both the crew when met in person not being quite the same as on paper or on the phone. And as a hired skipper had his share of unreasonable or uncaring owners, often lying dead drunk in the cabin 24/7. But he has a luxury of being able to deliver pretty much any typical sailboat single handed, if need be.

Anyway, in all my trips/deliveries with this guy we never had a crew problem. But then again I knew everyone form either prior interactions or through mutual friends.

So my take on this discussion is that even a short personal face to face meeting is always better than some lengthy paperwork or back and forth with someone thousands miles away.

PS My very first trip with this guy our first two days we had a nasty chop in the Gulf Stream and I was the only one without significant seasickness. But on the next trip I was seasick for 2 days in similar conditions. On other trips not so much. Go figure.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

That reminded me of a question I wanted to ask for a while, having been a voluntary crew on FL to New England deliveries a few times (all non stop) - does that trip qualifies as coastal or offshore, considering that we were 150-200mi out for a good portion of it?

That probably depends.

This is a rough guide for me.

Coastal - up to 50 miles from shore / safe harbour

Offshore - up to 150 miles from shore / safe harbour

Ocean - past 150 miles from shore / safe harbour

Other might think otherwise.

You could also use the GMDSS limits

A1 - 20-30 miles
A2 - 150 miles
A3 - past 150 miles

The Government of Canada uses

near coastal voyage, Class 1 means a voyage

(a) that is not a sheltered waters voyage or a near coastal voyage, Class 2;

(b) that is between places in Canada, the United States (except Hawaii), Saint Pierre and Miquelon, the West Indies, Mexico, Central America or the northeast coast of South America; and

(c) during which the vessel engaged on the voyage is always

(i) north of latitude 6°N, and

(ii) within 200 nautical miles from shore or above the continental shelf. (voyage à proximité du littoral, classe 1)

near coastal voyage, Class 2 means a voyage

(a) that is not a sheltered waters voyage; and

(b) during which the vessel engaged on the voyage is always

(i) within 25 nautical miles from shore in waters contiguous to Canada, the United States (except Hawaii) or Saint Pierre and Miquelon, and

(ii) within 100 nautical miles from a place of refuge. (voyage à proximité du littoral, classe 2)

sheltered waters voyage means a voyage

(a) that is in Canada on a lake, or a river above tidal waters, where a vessel can never be further than one nautical mile from the closest shore;

(b) that is on the waters listed in column 1 of an item of Schedule 1 during the period specified in column 2 of that item; or

(c) that is made by a ferry between two or more points listed in column 1 of an item of Schedule 2 during the period specified in column 2 of that item. (voyage en eaux abritées)

SOLAS means the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea, 1974, and the Protocol of 1988 relating to the Convention, as amended from time to time. (SOLAS)

unlimited voyage means a voyage that is not a sheltered waters voyage, a near coastal voyage, Class 2 or a near coastal voyage, Class 1. (voyage illimité)

There really is no right answer.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

But the pertinent question is NOT who is the biggest expert on a medical condition. The question is whether the captain reasonably 'thinks' the medical condition is likely to affect the crewmembers ability to do what is expected of him in order to successfully complete the voyage, whether the captain is right or wrong about that. The captain HAS to have confidence that his crew can successfully complete the voyage.

......

At no time did I think I knew more about medicine than his doctor does. I do however know a LOT more than his doctor about what is required to be an adequate crewmember in conditions we are likely to encounter over the next 4 days and how a bad head cold might impact our ability to deal successfully with them, so it's ultimately my call, not the doctors.

IMO, this is an excellent description of the responsibility level of the captain of a vessel/airplane. The commercial airline environment is far more structured than amateur yachting, but in the end, the skipper carries the can if something goes wrong. I don't know if the skipper in the OP could write such an eloquent summation of his decision to reject the OP as crew, but his thought process would have been similar I suspect, and his need to be confident in his crew much the same.

Jim

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by darylat8750

On "the Capt. was almost broke" line of thought...... We have the OPs statement that the Capt. could only give him $260. My children thought we were poor because when they asked for something they often got the response "We can't afford that." They didn't realize that it was really short hand for "We have lots of financial decisions to make and this is not important enough to float up to the top of things that we are willing to spend money on." IMHO That he was willing to give him anything was very decent of the Capt.

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

IMO, this is an excellent description of the responsibility level of the captain of a vessel/airplane. The commercial airline environment is far more structured than amateur yachting, but in the end, the skipper carries the can if something goes wrong. I don't know if the skipper in the OP could write such an eloquent summation of his decision to reject the OP as crew, but his thought process would have been similar I suspect, and his need to be confident in his crew much the same.

Jim

The main difference being, if an airline refuses to let you board, they refund your money.

In this case, the crewmember was told to fly out, spent the money to do so and then left at the dock.

To take the analogy even further, there are gov't agencies such as the FAA that ensure the airlines properly maintain all of the aircraft.

There is no such agency to ensure that someone who owns a boat is properly maintaining it prior to setting sail with a volunteer crew.

Does anyone here provide a list of emergency equipment and their respective expiration dates to potential crewmembers? It seems to be the only prudent thing to do. It's quite obvious there is a great expectation of withheld information on both sides of the captain/crew equation.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

The main difference being, if an airline refuses to let you board, they refund your money.

In this case, the crewmember was told to fly out, spent the money to do so and then left at the dock.

Umm... we are talking about crew, not paying passengers.

Jim

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by carstenb

I haven't had crew for ocean passsages, but I have had crew for coastal. Some of them seem to think they are better sailors than we are (maybe they are) some of them think they know more than we do (maybe they do), some of them think they are the skipper just because they came aboard - they are not.

I'm happy to discuss almost any sailing decision (assuming there is time) with the crew, but once I, or my wife, have said "right here's what we are going to do" - then that is what we do and no more discussions.

We've had a couple decide to things their way in spite of what we said. They never set foot on the boat again.

WE don't know why this skipper made the decision he did. Undisclosed medical conditions are certainly a no-no in my book. Going to a foreign country ups the ante to really high stakes. The skipper can end up being held responsible for medical bills and god knows what else.

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Umm... we are talking about crew, not paying passengers.

Jim

In either case, they should be reassured that all emergency equipment is in good condition and up to date as well as all major repairs and maintenance have been performed.

Even unpaid crew is entitled to a working lifeboat, for example.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by Cap Erict3

Yes. I don't have feel I have to agree with his beliefs.

I assume u decide who is allowed in your home?

Not based on colour or nationality I don't, 'no'. And 'colour and eye shape' are nothing to do with ' beliefs'..

[WindwardPrinces]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Not based on colour or nationality I don't, 'no'. And 'colour and eye shape' are nothing to do with ' beliefs'..

It was an irrelevant example to begin with, so I'm not sure why you're still carrying it forward.

[Lizzy Belle]

After a lot of guessing, promoting the OP to medical doctor and more fun like race etc., please allow me to recap.

Just a quick review of what we know, and what we'll never know (since the OP went quiet after 3 posts):

Post 1 by the OP, leaving out the very reason why this happened:

Originally Posted by DreaminFred

// After I arrived, the skipper asked more questions, which again I answer honestly and completely. He decides he doesn't want me to crew for the trip. Fine, his prerogative. Bad decision, but his right to decide. //

Then, the plot thickens ...:

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

// Assuming this is the same boat, he was quite concerned about your health conditions which you did not mention here and perhaps did not mention prior to your meeting. //

More or less forcing the OP to tell us a little bit more:

Originally Posted by DreaminFred

It is the same boat and that was the skipper's concern, my issue isn't with the skipper's right to make a decision, it's with the timing and fallout of the decision.
//
BTW, the "health issue" that the skipper was concerned about has never caused me to miss a day of work in 36 years, never limited my activity and you would not know I had it unless you had a laboratory or asked me a question which I would answer truthfully. And I have a PhD in the study of this health issue.

Which sounds -to me- like "you wouldn't know unless you asked the right question".

What the OP doesn't mention, however, is:

- Exactly what question did the skipper have to ask to find out about this health issue?
- Was health ever discussed in any way before flying out?
- What was the agreement regarding the costs?

When asked to clarify, the OP's final post was:

Originally Posted by DreaminFred

Can you know what questions to answer before they're asked? I'm not a mind reader. This "issue" has never been an issue before in my work or (fairly extensive) sailing experience.

Again, no issue with the skipper's right to make a decision not to my liking. The issue is who should bear the cost of the decision?

Rank has its privileges, rank has its responsibilities.

So all we know now is that the OP is not a mindreader - not very helpful.
Perhaps he expects the skipper to be one so he knows the exact wording to use to get all the info?
(As in: any health issues at all? instead of, for instance, Any health issues I should know about?)

As to what they agreed on concerning the costs - the OP never answered that question. That leaves me to assume they either they never discussed it (which I kinda doubt), or he was supposed to pay his own way regardless (which isn't unusual).

So the OP refuses to provide the single bit of information we need to answer his question.
Actually, he did that twice - Boatguy30 provided the actual reason, not the OP.

After reading his posts again, and reading the questions he ignores or only somewhat answers, my conclusion is that the OP is less then forthcoming, ignoring the questions that would provide us the needed info to answer his question (or dance around them).

It has proven difficult to get a full story or even some simple answers out of him, and he opted to leave the topic fairly soon after people started asking questions and/or answering his "who should bear the cost of the decision" with "you" or "depends on ..." instead of "the captain" ...

And with this post, we should make it to 20 pages (soon)