What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

I'll be totally honest here, if I were a captain looking for crewmembers, I'd ask a million questions before letting someone on my boat. Aside from medical issues, I'd ask about your political views, family background, work history, personal references, any crackpot conspiracy theories.

There are a lot of reasons why someone wouldn't be a good fit.

I don't think anyone has suggested a Captain shouldn't ask questions.

What if you were the potential crew?

Wouldn't you take the same approach and share all that same information you could possibly think of up front rather than hoping the Captain asked you? Or would you take a don't ask, don't tell approach?

[svmariane]

[QUOTE=valhalla360;2023385]

Originally Posted by Tellie

I've hear a few versions of "I don't know you from...." while staying genteel just not sure how a bar of soap fits in.

But this is wandering into thread drift.

WARNING:

To clarify for the unenlightened.

“Don’t know him from a bar of soap.”

Origin: (Australia/New Zealand.) Unknown. Some speculate the origins hark back to the bible and it being a variant on, “I don’t know you from Adam.” This theory falls flat however because as we all know Australians and New Zealanders are all Godless heathens that don’t read.

Really means: You literally cannot tell the difference between a human being and a hygiene product.

Verdict: Corrective eye surgery may be required.

See Also: “Don’t know him from Adam”/”Don’t know her from a hole in the wall.”



And before the good folk from Aus & NZ chime in to slice my gullet .... I am out of here!

[monte]

My guess would be Ye olde cockney slang, bar of soap = the pope

[brianlara 3]

[QUOTE=svmariane;2023479]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

WARNING:

To clarify for the unenlightened.

“Don’t know him from a bar of soap.”

Origin: (Australia/New Zealand.) Unknown. Some speculate the origins hark back to the bible and it being a variant on, “I don’t know you from Adam.” This theory falls flat however because as we all know Australians and New Zealanders are all Godless heathens that don’t read.

Really means: You literally cannot tell the difference between a human being and a hygiene product.

Verdict: Corrective eye surgery may be required.

See Also: “Don’t know him from Adam”/”Don’t know her from a hole in the wall.”



And before the good folk from Aus & NZ chime in to slice my gullet .... I am out of here!

Only because the worlds best engines, SULZER WARTSILA two stroke diesels (container ships) are part Austrian and also that Kolonel Klink und Sgt Schultzzz were Germans ..........
UND .....I lurve what Engela Merkel does......are you redeemed.

[brianlara 3]

Originally Posted by monte

My guess would be Ye olde cockney slang, bar of soap = the pope

Shoot you bloody clever!! Nuh, you looked it up......

[Caribsailors]

Originally Posted by RicknSue

Had a similar situation , but with an employer in a business, not boat related. Sold everything , moved my wife and young daughters to the caribean and show up to find out he hasn't even applied for my work permit, let alone received it. We made the best of a bad situation, but it boggles my mind to this day how people think screwing with other peoples life's is ok..

Sorry to say... Your story is not the only one... we have seen it a thousand times.

Rule #2....Your not at home Dorthy

[Time2Go]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I was approached by a guy today that I took as crew on a 2 day trip down the coast. I had sailed with him before, and we got along well. It was rough the first night, and he got seasick. I gave him some meds, but he was still having problems holding things down. By the next morning he had a urinary tract infection. I gave him antibiotics and pressed on because the the weather window was tight witha gale forecast for the day after we got in.

What he told me today was that he was still recovering from this trip which happened over two months ago. Multiple doctor's visits and 3 courses of antibiotics.

The point is, he was healthy when he signed on, and his illness was unexpected, but I was glad we weren't at sea any longer. Health issues can be a nightmare at sea when your body is stressed.

A few observations
You were crazy to give any Sea Sickness medications to anybody.
They all have interactions with other medications either over the counter
or prescription. This was pointed out to me on a crew agreement (26 pages)
for a transatlantic crew slot. One of the known complications of
Sea sickness medication is it's interaction with certain prostate medications
which renders the individual unable to urinate. This crew agreement
pointed out a few other known interactions and suggested that any prospective
crew investigate possible interactions of any of their meds with sea sickness
meds. I Would Go anywhere with this captain. He had his stuff together
for both the crews and boats safety. Incidently this was a captain pays all
Expenses trip.

I have crewed on quit a few boats over the past few years.
Let's be real here, most "Crew Wanted" adds are really some type of
back door charter in that they require a "Contribution" sometimes
just to make the trip cheap for the boat owner, sometimes to flat out
make a profit. Imagine getting on a boat only to find out another
of the volunteer crew weighed 450 pounds and couldn't move about the boat.
Imagine getting on a boat to find that the SSB and Watermaker are indeed
brand new, but still in their boxes, uninstalled.

This whole concept of volunteer crew is one day gonna blow up big time
and your insurance is gonna blow up with it.

[contrail]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

Do you currently have any medical conditions that would preclude you from being a crewmember on a boat?

No?

Do you currently have your wisdom teeth?

Yes?

Do you feel it matters on a cruise on a boat?

No?

If you do still have your wisdom teeth, that alone will disqualify you from being a crewmember on a submarine. All of us had to have our wisdom teeth pulled before sub school, no exceptions, even though I was older and all of mine were in nice and straight with no dental issues.

Do you feel that having your wisdom teeth is a "health issue?" The US Navy does.


The correct time to ask you about any and all medical conditions is before you spend your own money travelling to meet the rest of the crew.

It appears to me that Fred felt his "issue" was not going to affect his ability to crew, the capt. obviously felt otherwise. What should have been done was a complete interview before Fred flew out.

Just like the example above, how are you to know what unusual requirements you need for sub service? I feel the same was true for Fred, how was he to know what would exclude him from the crew? He couldn't until the capt. got down to specifics, which should have been done before Fred spent any money travelling.

I'm just putting myself in Fred's shoes. He's had whatever this "issue" is for 36 yrs and it's never affected his ability to sail before, so maybe the capt. was being overly cautious about who is on his crew, which I don't fault him for at all. It's just that his lack of attention to detail cost Fred a lot of money and time and I don't think any of us would have appreciated that happening to any of us.

But how can you expect the captain to ask about some disease of which he has no knowledge and let off the prospective crewmember, who has studied this condition, as well as having it, and who volunteers nothing? The best the captain can do is ask if the potential crew suffers from anything significant, but that puts him or her squarely at the mercy of the potential crewmember's judgement, which may be exactly what happened. Makes NO sense. What does make sense is if the potential crewmember says, "By the way, you haven't asked this, but I do suffer from X condition, which is actually harmless. In fact, I have studied this syndrome myself, and have a PhD on the subject, and refer you to the following experts and texts to ease your mind, if you find it at all worrying." That would have headed off all problems and built trust, no?

But, in one of his posts on this thread, DFred, the OP, talks about next time finding a skipper "with skin in the game"!!! NO skin in the game? I would venture that the skipper had way more skin in the game than DFred, including the responsibility for DFred's health and welfare! Perhaps the skipper sensed a psychological incompatibility and didn't want to deal with any sense of entitlement issues not to mention the even greater skin in the game necessitated by the late disclosure of a difficulty.

DFred's modification of Monte's contract also was at pains to make a crew the captain's equal, which I find disturbing and puzzling, since he tells us he has owned boats and sailed a lot........I wonder how many other prospective captains might also have been made a bit edgy about this? The captain, legally, morally, and practically, is not the same as a crewmember, no matter how much advice he or she may be willing to take.

Here in the British Virgin Islands crewed charter trade, from time to time we lose a guest who has inconsiderately failed to disclose a medical condition (or even age) that is totally disqualifying. Family may then admit that "it was on his/her bucket list", or "we thought he might even want to go out that way." No joke. And no thought for the crews that have to retrieve the body and then deal with a police investigation that lasts days and freezes the movement of the boat.....not to mention the mental stress for the crew.

When I do a delivery, I enjoy having crew and plenty of it, but I always say that I really don't care, beyond a minimal level, what the crews' expertise is. What I do care about is character, compatibility, and effort, and for that reason I very rarely will take on someone I don't already know really well. I would rather sail shorthanded, or, if absolutely necessary, singlehanded, and experience on various boats has always corroborated this position.

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Do you have an all inclusive list of medical issues that a captain must ask? Are captains required to have a medical background?

This is a volunteer crew position. I don't think the plan was to strap him to the mast and do dental surgery on him.

It looks more like a screw job to me.

He asked questions, got honest answers, had Fred spend his own money to fly out, then asked MORE questions, THEN decided to exclude Fred from the crew.

How would you feel if he had done it to you?

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I don't think anyone has suggested a Captain shouldn't ask questions.

What if you were the potential crew?

Wouldn't you take the same approach and share all that same information you could possibly think of up front rather than hoping the Captain asked you? Or would you take a don't ask, don't tell approach?

I would tell him everything that I think would have any bearing on my ability to serve as an able bodied crew member.

I usually get up in the middle of the night to go take a leak.


Is that a medical condition? Is that something that the captain feels is something that should exclude me?

I don't know, and nobody does until he asks. Fred didn't hide anything he felt was of consequence, but at the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum, if he's going to have specific things that will exclude someone from his crew, then he needs to ask those before they fly out.

That's only logical and considerate.

It's the same reason I don't turn around and walk out on a date after talking to her on the phone for 3 weeks. By the time I've committed to dinner, I already have a really good idea who I'm dealing with. That's why I don't find myself in a position to regret first dates, because I look before I jump.

Let's say I chatted up a woman for 3 weeks and then asked her out to dinner, told her she wasn't my type, walked out on her in the middle and left her with the bill. Can you imagine what she'd have to say about me to her friends, much less on the internet? Wow! I might be forced to change my name!

Thinking about it futher, I wouldn't sail with someone who could only cough up $260. Are you kidding me? You can't fix ANYTHING on a boat for that piddly money! Leaving home with that small amount of money in your pocket is just BEGGING for disaster to strike!


Actually Fred, I think Cap'n Ain'tgotnomoney did you a really big favor, so count your blessings!

[monte]

Originally Posted by contrail

"we thought he might even want to go out that way.".

Hah. Classic!

[darylat8750]

As long as we are guessing...... Could it be that the OP didn't tell him when they met face to face but the issue was something that the Capt. noticed?

[monte]

Good post btw contrail. I hadn't looked too closely at the edits as our current form suits our purposes, but I wouldn't be opposed to crew asking for some alterations for their personal peace of mind.
Edits such as:
Should you not reach the final destination because of my decisions or act of God, weather, etc.. I will pay your travel expenses to and from your original departure point excepting as specified below
Would not be allowed

Although further down the agreement:
You understand that should you leave the yacht, for whatever reason, at a port other than that to which you had agreed in this agreement, you will be responsible for all your own travel and related costs. You also understand and agree that if you are asked to leave the yacht for reasons of demonstrated lack of competence, inappropriate behavior, medical issue not disclosed in this document, or the inability to carry out required tasks, which, in Captain's opinion, is endangering the safe operation of the yacht, you will also be responsible for all your own repatriation costs

This edit would be allowed and including the 'medical conditions not disclosed' clause probably would have avoided the OPs and the Captains distress well before any agreement arose between them in this case.

I don't know the Captains side of the story but I would assume he is more put out by having to delay his plans, pay additional mooring fees and wait for another weather window while he searches for another crew member than the crew who missed the ride. Of course maybe there's more to it than meets the eye..

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by contrail

But how can you expect the captain to ask about some disease of which he has no knowledge and let off the prospective crewmember, who has studied this condition, as well as having it, and who volunteers nothing? The best the captain can do is ask if the potential crew suffers from anything significant, but that puts him or her squarely at the mercy of the potential crewmember's judgement, which may be exactly what happened. Makes NO sense. What does make sense is if the potential crewmember says, "By the way, you haven't asked this, but I do suffer from X condition, which is actually harmless. In fact, I have studied this syndrome myself, and have a PhD on the subject, and refer you to the following experts and texts to ease your mind, if you find it at all worrying." That would have headed off all problems and built trust, no?

But, in one of his posts on this thread, DFred, the OP, talks about next time finding a skipper "with skin in the game"!!! NO skin in the game? I would venture that the skipper had way more skin in the game than DFred, including the responsibility for DFred's health and welfare! Perhaps the skipper sensed a psychological incompatibility and didn't want to deal with any sense of entitlement issues not to mention the even greater skin in the game necessitated by the late disclosure of a difficulty.

DFred's modification of Monte's contract also was at pains to make a crew the captain's equal, which I find disturbing and puzzling, since he tells us he has owned boats and sailed a lot........I wonder how many other prospective captains might also have been made a bit edgy about this? The captain, legally, morally, and practically, is not the same as a crewmember, no matter how much advice he or she may be willing to take.

Here in the British Virgin Islands crewed charter trade, from time to time we lose a guest who has inconsiderately failed to disclose a medical condition (or even age) that is totally disqualifying. Family may then admit that "it was on his/her bucket list", or "we thought he might even want to go out that way." No joke. And no thought for the crews that have to retrieve the body and then deal with a police investigation that lasts days and freezes the movement of the boat.....not to mention the mental stress for the crew.

When I do a delivery, I enjoy having crew and plenty of it, but I always say that I really don't care, beyond a minimal level, what the crews' expertise is. What I do care about is character, compatibility, and effort, and for that reason I very rarely will take on someone I don't already know really well. I would rather sail shorthanded, or, if absolutely necessary, singlehanded, and experience on various boats has always corroborated this position.

[Lizzy Belle]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

THEN decided to exclude Fred from the crew.

a) you don't know that, unless you have info the rest of us doesn't
b) you seem to forget the only thing the capt. got out of it was a headache.

@darylat8750: also possible. But the OP has gone quiet and the capt. isn't here so yet another thing we'll never know.

Anyway -- the OP has gone quiet, the capt. isn't here to tell his side so we'll never know the entire story. The OP wanted opinions, and he now has plenty.

Learned a lot from this topic tho -- and am reminded about why I am so damn hesitant to take on crew.