Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 21-01-2016, 12:17   #76
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Penobscot Bay, Maine
Boat: Tayana 47
Posts: 994
Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

"Crewing on Sephina works best when all are considered equals. You will be consulted, when appropriate, as a part of decision making, but you must be also willing to share all work, difficulties and dangers."

Monte,
I liked most of your contract but the first sentence above makes me nervous. A crew is NOT a democracy where everybody's vote counts equally, and I think it would be wrong to imply that to any crew member and it could become problematic to have a statement like that in a signed contract if your vessel is ever in a dangerous situation. First, it's the captains responsibility to have the final say and that includes veto power over everyone else aboard and they all need to know that. Of course, it's incumbent on the captain to take advantage of that as infrequently as possible. There are a lot of reasons why there needs to be a firm understanding of exactly what the hierarchy is. First, it avoids constant bickering and politicking among crew on a long voyage, it ensures that the captain has the ability to get everyone working towards a common goal rather than all the equal individuals feeling that they have just as much right as anyone else aboard to insist that things are done their way, the captain has legal responsibility and liability if things go awry, so he must also have the ability to make decisions that make sense to him rather than always being a slave to the consensus of his crew. Everyone needs to understand and agree to that before leaving port.

That said, I really like your second sentence above because, though the captain always must have the privilege of the last word, an effective captain builds consensus on his crew and shows respect for them and solicits input from all the crewmembers for several reasons and I think you are wise to let them know that you plan to operate that way. They may have information the captain needs or a different perspective that he hasn't thought of but improves on what he might have done otherwise, and it helps them to understand the issues they are all facing together and to feel that they have at least partial ownership of whatever the captain decides is best, which improves both morale and performance.
__________________

__________________
jtsailjt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2016, 13:04   #77
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,157
Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSY Man View Post
Sure he sounds like a nice guy, but if he is blind, severely obese or has other major problems that could endanger himself and others on a sailboat, the skipper did the only sensible thing and small claims court would be a waste of time.
Any of those conditions should have been asked and answered long before he got on a plane.
__________________

__________________
socaldmax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2016, 13:06   #78
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Why dya think folk say it takes at least 3 days to settle at sea before it gets enjoyable..
That's when the Detox has kicked in...
What happens ashore stays ashore...
I am sooooooo grateful I don't get seasick.
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2016, 13:09   #79
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by socaldmax View Post
I'm kind of surprised that a lot of people seem to think that the crew member was withholding info. How is he supposed to know what to tell the captain? He doesn't, that's why the captain's responsibility is to ask all of the right questions PRIOR to having the guy fly out.

Now if the crew member said he had no health issues in the first interview, but revealed something important in the 2nd interview, then yes, he was withholding info. Personally, the fact that there was a 2nd interview indicates to me that the first interview wasn't well thought out or thorough, and that's entirely the captain's fault.
Come on now...if you know you have a condition or on medication, be it for physical , emotional or mental reasons, the skipper has a right to know that...so yes, they would be withholding, even if the question wasn't asked.
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2016, 13:15   #80
Registered User
 
Lizzy Belle's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Netherlands
Boat: Ohlson 29
Posts: 1,522
Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Agreed - the "I'm not telling unless asked what I consider the right question" isn't the way to go about it.

Also, we don't know what the captain asked and when ... And we probably never will, as we weren't there when they spoke
__________________
"Il faut Ítre toujours ivre." - Charles Baudelaire
Dutch ♀ Liveaboard, sharing an Ohlson 29 with a feline.
Lizzy Belle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2016, 13:33   #81
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Schooner Chandlery's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: home port Washington DC
Boat: SS Crocker design #131
Posts: 977
Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Two parts to this response--one about crewing and second about my own background/stance that brings me there.

It is pretty common for wannabe sailors to take a flight or otherwise position themselves in a port where they're likely to be picked up as crew. They younger/healthier/less threatening a potential crew member looks, the more likely this is going to work for them. If someone has obvious baggage -- long term alcohol/drug use shows, nervous behavior/tells of a medical condition, an obvious disability--they're going to have a harder time. Some things are not obvious but very serious--like diabetes that is only controlled by insulin shots, epilepsy, or even severe allergies that require one to carry an epi-pen. Those are ALL things to discuss with the captain at the point that the crewmember wishes to do so-but certainly enough before the trip that the captain has a reasonable chance to get other crew.

I don't think it's up to the skipper to ask pointed questions to tease the answers out of the potential crew--some have NO sailing experience so more questions might be asked, of course, to make sure the potential crew isn't just dreaming of their ability to be crew--this OP has sailing experience and crewed for others (s/he says) so that's not the case here.

If the OP had something serious going on -- whether physically apparent or something which s/he would have had to notify the captain of (e.g. this is how to deal with me if I am exposed to peanut oil...here's the epi-pen...blah, blah...) and it would have been quite fair for the captain to say "no, too complicated for me to deal with, best of luck with another boat" and that be that. If the OP CHOSE not to reveal the (PhD-studied....hum....really?) condition, s/he was taking a gamble on this captain and that gamble didn't pay off. In a variety of the scenarios I can imagine (since the OP isn't about to reveal his/her condition/issue) the OP is very lucky that the captain provided a dime for the return trip.

In future engagements like this, surely the OP will either show up at the port and seek a crew spot OR they will be much more forthcoming about themselves while still at home. It is also a little odd that this OP is a sailor with previous experience with other skippers but yet didn't just manage to find a position via the normal grapevine/connections of those other skippers. It's usually not that hard to do.

Good luck to the OP in future travels and good luck to the captain in finding future crew.

Disclosure: I have never acted as crew for another boat primarily because I have a non-obvious nerve damage (from a c1-c2 neck injury that had my right side paralyzed for a few days in 1994 and left me with residual nerve deficits including within the autonomic nervous system) and I'm acutely aware of how it COULD impact my performance. In particular when I'm extremely tired or stressed, my balance, eyesight, and coordination is off. My sensory system is always a bit dampened on the right side but being tired or stressed makes it worse. I have been asked to crew for others but I will not take the chance of my health impacting others AND of their actions impacting my health. My husband and I sail together dual handed in challenging conditions but we've been partners in various outdoor exploits since 1980 and he is well familiar with my condition, of course.

We do NOT take on additional crew for multi-day travels unless we really know the person well enough to understand their needs/conditions and how they will interact with us aboard. It is important to me that everyone's needs aboard are met and that no one impacts others in a way that is detrimental. Because of that, we've only had 1 real "crew" (for a couple weeks of great coastal cruising) of a fellow we know and trust, and 1 "passenger" who was a person with the dream of ocean travel via sailing yacht and we let her hop a ride with us for a non-stop 5-1/2 day leg going up the coast from SF to WA. She really had no desire to learn how to sail and no money to charter. We all had a wonderful time with no expectations from her to help and with a full understanding of her own needs.

Good things happen when all are open and honest about their situation from the get-go. Since the OP hasn't revealed his/her condition, I suspect it is something significant enough to the crew spot that all our answers would have been "wow, you're lucky to have gotten any help on the travel" and "why didn't you tell the skipper this from the start?"
__________________
"The only noble thing a man can do with money is to build a schooner." Robert Louis Stevenson

Schooner Chandlery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2016, 13:34   #82
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: WY / Currently in Hayes VA on the Chesapeake
Boat: Ocean Alexander, Ocean 44
Posts: 922
Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSY Man View Post
Sure he sounds like a nice guy, but if he is blind, severely obese or has other major problems that could endanger himself and others on a sailboat, the skipper did the only sensible thing and small claims court would be a waste of time.
Any of those conditions should have been asked and answered long before he got on a plane.



The discussion isn't Perry Mason on cross examination. If the crew is not 100% normal for goodness sakes tell the Capt.!

You shouldn't have to ask someone if they are bringing an "emotional support turkey" with them..... Just say'n..........

Passenger brings ‘support turkey’ on Delta flight | New York Post
__________________
darylat8750 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2016, 14:35   #83
Now on the Dark Side: Stink Potter.
 
CSY Man's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Ft. Lauderdale
Boat: 2001 Albin 28TE.
Posts: 3,399
Images: 115
Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Support Turkey..?
What a great idea, I need one just before Thanksgiving
__________________
Life is sexually transmitted
www.odincharters.com
www.susanhanssen.com
CSY Man is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2016, 14:40   #84
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,673
Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Dreaming Fred,

IMO, this issue is most likely not so much due to your pre-existing medical condition, but the fact that the failure to disclose it at the outset damaged the essential trust that a skipper must have in crew. From his point of view, it looks like "if DFred is not open and self-disclosing with me on this issue, what else that I need to know is he withholding?"

If your condition is something, for instance, like color blindness, he would be totally justified in knocking you back. There, when you use the binos on watch at night, you could not distinguish the red and green lights. My point here is that a medical condition, whether hereditary or not, could affect your performance, and you still be able to work without its affecting you.

The real issue is trust, and failure to disclose damaged that. That is what you can change, if you want to, so no great need to swear off crewing for an offshore passage. Also, all the financial details should be clear before you buy your plane ticket.

I is regrettable that it worked out badly; but it is a super lesson in taking responsibility for yourself.

Now, the contract that monte posted would not be valid for the US. US skippers cannot accept any remuneration without the appropriate license.

The better deal, for your safety, is to crew for someone you know you can trust, and for me, this would preclude being pickup crew for a passage with a stranger.

Fair winds,

Ann
__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2016, 14:58   #85
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,157
Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
Come on now...if you know you have a condition or on medication, be it for physical , emotional or mental reasons, the skipper has a right to know that...so yes, they would be withholding, even if the question wasn't asked.
Do you currently have any medical conditions that would preclude you from being a crewmember on a boat?

No?

Do you currently have your wisdom teeth?

Yes?

Do you feel it matters on a cruise on a boat?

No?

If you do still have your wisdom teeth, that alone will disqualify you from being a crewmember on a submarine. All of us had to have our wisdom teeth pulled before sub school, no exceptions, even though I was older and all of mine were in nice and straight with no dental issues.

Do you feel that having your wisdom teeth is a "health issue?" The US Navy does.


The correct time to ask you about any and all medical conditions is before you spend your own money travelling to meet the rest of the crew.

It appears to me that Fred felt his "issue" was not going to affect his ability to crew, the capt. obviously felt otherwise. What should have been done was a complete interview before Fred flew out.

Just like the example above, how are you to know what unusual requirements you need for sub service? I feel the same was true for Fred, how was he to know what would exclude him from the crew? He couldn't until the capt. got down to specifics, which should have been done before Fred spent any money travelling.

I'm just putting myself in Fred's shoes. He's had whatever this "issue" is for 36 yrs and it's never affected his ability to sail before, so maybe the capt. was being overly cautious about who is on his crew, which I don't fault him for at all. It's just that his lack of attention to detail cost Fred a lot of money and time and I don't think any of us would have appreciated that happening to any of us.
__________________
socaldmax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2016, 15:40   #86
Registered User
 
Lizzy Belle's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Netherlands
Boat: Ohlson 29
Posts: 1,522
Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by socaldmax View Post
how was he to know what would exclude him from the crew?
Maybe he knew, maybe he didn't. But he did know he has a health issue, so why not inform the skipper and let him decide? What's the point in not telling something you are very aware of? And, with the experience he claims to have, something he should have known COULD be an issue ...
__________________
"Il faut Ítre toujours ivre." - Charles Baudelaire
Dutch ♀ Liveaboard, sharing an Ohlson 29 with a feline.
Lizzy Belle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2016, 15:59   #87
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,877
Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

[QUOTE=Tellie;2022922]
Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
I know neither the OP or the Captain from a bar of soap (that's a wierd turn of phrase, never heard before)...



You just never met my Mom. It's an old phrase used back in the time when people felt a more genteel phrase was more appropriate to get their point across than what passes for turns of phrase today.

Halden Marine Services | Marine Watermakers, Solar Panels, Wind Generators
I've hear a few versions of "I don't know you from...." while staying genteel just not sure how a bar of soap fits in.

But this is wandering into thread drift.
__________________
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2016, 16:00   #88
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,157
pirate Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post
Maybe he knew, maybe he didn't. But he did know he has a health issue, so why not inform the skipper and let him decide? What's the point in not telling something you are very aware of? And, with the experience he claims to have, something he should have known COULD be an issue ...
Just because one person feels it is an issue does not mean everyone feels it is an issue.

Like the example I gave above.

Do you have any health issues?

No?

Do you have your wisdom teeth?

Yes?


Why didn't you divulge that as a health issue? The US Navy considers that an issue that will bar you from sub service.

You had NO WAY of knowing that until specifically asked about it and then told it was an issue.

Perhaps that's how it worked out with Fred. He has owned his own boats and crewed on deliveries in the past, why did his "issue" not prevent him from all of that?

Who knows, unless he's willing to post it up here, all any of us are doing is speculating. There is no cut and dried list of medical or health issues that would interfere with one's ability to handle duties as a crewmember, just opinions.

Hell, if I was a captain looking for crewmembers, I wouldn't take anyone over about 30. Old age and wrinkles are definitely medical issues. Rest assured, I would ask LONG before anyone flew out.

Here's a pic of my next crew.

__________________
socaldmax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2016, 16:01   #89
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,877
Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by monte View Post
Here's something that might help others in similar situations. Anyone sailing on board with us is informed they will be required to agree to the terms before departure. Along with some other information it is emailed to potential crew before any agreements are in place. Friends and family are also required to agree to these terms. This process should have resolved the OPs problem we'll beforehand. Feel free to cut/paste/edit for your own use. ( legal disclaimer : this form may or may not be legal in your particular location or situation. Seeking legal advice for your particular situation is advised )



CREW AGREEMENT SV SEPHINA

YACHT: Sephina (here after referred to as "the Yacht")

VOYAGE FROM: ______________________________

TO: _________________________________

INTENTIONS:
This agreement is designed to anticipate problems that might occur while aboard, both at sea or coastal cruising, and thus, avoid them. It is designed to protect both the skipper/owner and those who join him. To facilitate inquiries, should anything go wrong, a copy will be sent to the skipper's representative before departure; and I suggest that you send a copy to someone you deem appropriate. It is wise to inform someone at home of your plans.

Crewing on Sephina works best when all are considered equals. You will be consulted, when appropriate, as a part of decision making, but you must be also willing to share all work, difficulties and dangers. In completing this agreement YOU TAKE FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR DECISION TO JOIN, and agree that you are willing to accept all that may come your way. There have been no inducements or promises or consideration that is not fully described in this agreement.

The skipper hereby declares his belief that the boat is properly equipped and prepared for the planned voyage, and that he is fully competent to manage, alone or with crew. He invites the crew to test this statement in any way they wish - by their own inquiries and judgement, or with the help of others. When you sign this you agree that you have full investigated and found that the boat is properly equipped and that the skipper is capable, fit and competent. You understand and agree that I am the captain and you must obey all lawful orders.

MEDICAL DETAILS:
The boat has a well equipped medical kit, and a powerful radio with which emergency help may be obtained. However, you must take full responsibility for any current or past medical conditions that may recur, or any medical or health problems that may occur during or as a result of this trip. Make sure that you have ample medication for at least twice as long as the expected passage. You must inform the skipper of any potentially serious conditions that could affect safety at sea. Give details below of any known drug allergies, conditions that might recur, and current medication(s):

(mark "NONE" if none)_____________________________________________

Medical insurance may help save your life.

List details of your medical insurance, if any and all contact details:


Apart from spoiling your trip and making it harder for others aboard, seasickness can be dangerous, even fatal. Unless you know, from extensive experience, that you will not be affected, you must have, and be willing to use, reputable seasickness treatment. This is your responsibility.

_________ (initials, crew) ___________ (Initials, skipper)

PASSPORTS, VISAS AND REPATRIATION:
When you enter another country you may need to have a passport and visa, and be able to prove you can get yourself out of the country (other than by yacht) to another country to which you have full right of entry. The simplest way is to have an air ticket, or to carry sufficient cash to cover one. Credit cards are of no use in some countries. You are responsible for this and you understand that you may be asked to furnish proof to the skipper on boarding, and deposit with him your passport, air ticket or cash in lieu.

TRIP INTERRUPTION:
You understand that should you leave the yacht, for whatever reason, at a port other than that to which you had agreed in this agreement, you will be responsible for all your own travel and related costs. You also understand and agree that if you are asked to leave the yacht for reasons of lack of competence, inappropriate behaviour, crew incompatibility, illness, or the inability to carry out required tasks, which, in skipper's opinion, is endangering the safe operation of the yacht, you will also be responsible for all your own repatriation costs. However, in this event, the Skipper will take all reasonable measures to disembark you at a suitable port along the intended route, from which you can arrange your travel home.

MAINTENANCE WORK:
Keeping a cruising boat in safe condition requires work on repairs and maintenance , and this is an obligation to be shared by all aboard. Good crew looks for ways to help, and taking part will make you feel involved. As a guide you should be willing to put in about a half an hour a day, plus half a day per week, on maintenance or and repair to the boat. This does not include domestic work, in which you will also be required to share.

COST:
You may be required to contribute a daily amount to cover your cost aboard. To help avoid disagreements, all arrangements and all transactions must be recorded, at the time they are made, in this document initialled by both parties. You agree that at any monies you pay toward your own costs is not for any charter fee or passenger fee for the benefit of the boat or its owner or the skipper, but only for your own costs.

Costs per day: (no greater than) $__________________ initial_______

CREW DETAILS:

Name______________________________________________ ______

Address___________________________________________ _______

Passport Country/Number____________________________________
Passport Place and date of issue_______________________________
Passport expiry date_________________________________________

Contact Phone_____________________________________________

(Provide two (2) copies of the issue page(s) of your passport, and provide information from the passport: number, issue place , date of issue, expiration date, home address; and next of kin's full name, address and telephone number and an alternative contact.)
(initials, crew) ___________ (Initials, skipper) ___________

DECLARATIONS
I have completed the above details fully and honestly, and have volunteered any further information I am aware of that may affect the safe enjoyment of the proposed voyage by all aboard. I do not have any illegal drugs or weapons in my possession, and will immediately inform the skipper if I become aware of any on board, or anyone trying to bring such items aboard. I declare, by written statement on this agreement, details of any convictions, in any country, for the involvement with illegal drugs or weapons. I will not carry any packages for any third party on the boat without first requesting permission from the skipper. I accept that the skipper may change his plans, and will not hold him responsible for transportation to the original destination, should that not be reached by Sephina

I will make myself familiar with the location and operation of all safety equipment aboard the boat. I will seek to learn all aspects of seamanship by reading appropriate manuals and book aboard, and by asking help from the skipper and others. The responsibility is fully mine to learn and to ask to be taught any skills that I need for safe operation of the boat. If there is anything happening aboard the boat about which I am uncomfortable, I will discuss it with those concerned as soon as possible in order to avoid irreversible resentments that may spoil the atmosphere for all aboard. If the skipper is held responsible for bailing me out of trouble if I transgress local laws and customs, I agree to fully reimburse any cost incurred; and to compensate him for the time lost for every day of delay my action may cause. I take full responsibility for any requirements and cost relating for my entry and exit in countries to be visited by the boat. I agree to share all work aboard, and obey all orders given to me relating to the safe conduct of the boat, at all times.

I am aware that there are risks that I will face in this voyage, and take full responsibility for my decision to join the crew.

I, or my heirs, next of kin, legal representatives, successors and assigns, and in consideration of the acceptance as a crew member of the yacht, do hereby waive any and all claims which I may have against Robert Monteith or any other duly qualified and authorized captain appointed by him, arising out of, or in any way connected with, my participation as a members of the crew of the yacht, and understand and agree that, as a member of the crew of said yacht, I have no recourse or claims of any kind against Robert Monteith and shall hold him harmless against all consequences of my participation as a crew member aboard the yacht.


Crew member:________________________


Skipper:____________________________


Date:
Reminds me of jokes about college kids signing off before hooking up.

That said, for a stranger I would probably want something similar. Probably wouldn't use if for a family member though.
__________________
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2016, 16:03   #90
Registered User
 
Lizzy Belle's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Netherlands
Boat: Ohlson 29
Posts: 1,522
Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

I think I've already posted my answer in this topic No point in re-posting my earlier posts.
__________________

__________________
"Il faut Ítre toujours ivre." - Charles Baudelaire
Dutch ♀ Liveaboard, sharing an Ohlson 29 with a feline.
Lizzy Belle is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
crew, skipper

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Crew Wanted: Checklist For Voluntary Crew la vida nueva Crew Positions: Wanted & Available 219 21-10-2017 19:17
Insurance Obligation ? Ted Atlantic & the Caribbean 8 15-01-2011 16:51



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:26.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.