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Old 28-01-2016, 16:02   #361
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

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Originally Posted by socaldmax View Post

Why he chose to dismiss the OP? That makes no difference, it's the captain's prerogative, he doesn't need justification or even a good reason.
If it makes no difference, then you are apparently changing your tune to the idea that the Captain isn't responsible for the OP's travel expenses.
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Old 28-01-2016, 16:23   #362
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Socaldmax,

I do not think either of us will convince the other--we are very far apart on this issue, because I think it was the OP himself who failed to take responsibility for his actions when he failed to freely disclose his condition to the skipper. I am in sympathy with why he did it: schizophrenia is a scary word. The other part, where we might be closer, is that the skipper did take responsibility, he gave him his "spare" cash. There are lots of us who would not have done that. When it is one's own boat, and one's own cruising kitty, we tend to be extremely tight-fisted, perhaps more than necessarily--but it's our own choice. I think your suggested action even more generous than that of the skipper in this case. And of course, we'll never know all the details.

RC, decide for yourself, one's ethics are so very much one's own business, and, as in this case, my idea of personal responsibility and socaldmax's are different. And, I wouldn't expect either of us to change our opinion, especially by this stage of the discussion.

Ann
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Old 28-01-2016, 17:02   #363
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Socaldmax,

I do not think either of us will convince the other--we are very far apart on this issue, because I think it was the OP himself who failed to take responsibility for his actions when he failed to freely disclose his condition to the skipper. I am in sympathy with why he did it: schizophrenia is a scary word. The other part, where we might be closer, is that the skipper did take responsibility, he gave him his "spare" cash. There are lots of us who would not have done that. When it is one's own boat, and one's own cruising kitty, we tend to be extremely tight-fisted, perhaps more than necessarily--but it's our own choice. I think your suggested action even more generous than that of the skipper in this case. And of course, we'll never know all the details.

RC, decide for yourself, one's ethics are so very much one's own business, and, as in this case, my idea of personal responsibility and socaldmax's are different. And, I wouldn't expect either of us to change our opinion, especially by this stage of the discussion.

Ann
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Old 28-01-2016, 20:37   #364
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

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If it makes no difference, then you are apparently changing your tune to the idea that the Captain isn't responsible for the OP's travel expenses.
Nope, never said that. I don't see any connection between what I stated and your contention that the captain isn't responsible. The reason he decided to change his mind makes no difference, whether we or anyone agrees with his reason, it's not going to change anything.

Yes, the captain has final say in who crews on his boat, but he doesn't have the right to jerk people around. He needs to make his decision prior to the crewmember flying out. I've stated it numerous times and given multiple analogies. I still have not changed my mind.

It's very simple.

WHO decided the OP should fly out there? The captain.

Who should reimburse the OP for making him waste his money by deciding afterwards that he wasn't going to be a crewmember? The CAPTAIN. It's his decision, it's his responsibility to ask all of the right questions and make his decision PRIOR to the OP paying for the flight.

I'm pretty sure if he pulled this stunt on you, you'd be on here complaining about it just like the OP did.

The final lesson I'm getting from all of this is get everything in writing, you can't trust anyone these days. I hear college students are now having to get written sexual consent contracts before they hook up to prevent the whole "she was wild and willing" vs "he got me drunk and took advantage of me" crap that so often goes on. Pretty sad.

OTOH, it probably would have saved Mike Tyson a lot of money and jail time.
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Old 28-01-2016, 21:16   #365
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

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Originally Posted by socaldmax View Post



It's very simple.



WHO decided the OP should fly out there? The captain.



Excuse the paraphrase, but I guess the above statement is why you aren't willing to change your mind or consider that possibly the captain has another take on the situation (which none of us have heard)
Personally no one makes decisions for me about how I manage my time and finances (although my boat often does 💰⛵️&#128176
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Old 28-01-2016, 23:13   #366
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

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Excuse the paraphrase, but I guess the above statement is why you aren't willing to change your mind or consider that possibly the captain has another take on the situation (which none of us have heard)
Personally no one makes decisions for me about how I manage my time and finances (although my boat often does 💰⛵️&#128176
Are you sure about that?

Because if you're married, everyone who's ever been married is nodding and winking right about now. LOL

There is no doubt what happened in the OP's situation, the captain told him to fly out and he willingly did so, but only after he was told he had a spot on the crew.

Speaking of not having heard from the captain...

he could very easily have presented his side of the story and we might be able to arrive at the facts. If I was the captain and I felt I was in the right, I would be all over this thread explaining my side.

However, if a person felt perhaps he was in the wrong or didn't feel like he had much of a leg to stand on, he'd distance himself from this thread.

Think about it, if someone started a thread about you and it wasn't true, wouldn't you make sure to correct the OP about the truth, or at least your side? The fact that the captain is a member on here and chooses not to tell his side should be speaking volumes to all of us.

If the captain has another take on this situation, I'd love to hear it, I'm very open minded. I've changed my mind plenty of times in the past and will probably even more so in the future. All it takes is a logical, ethical, compelling argument based on verifiable facts or the truth.
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Old 28-01-2016, 23:26   #367
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

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Originally Posted by socaldmax View Post
Are you sure about that?

Because if you're married, everyone who's ever been married is nodding and winking right about now. LOL

There is no doubt what happened in the OP's situation, the captain told him to fly out and he willingly did so, but only after he was told he had a spot on the crew.
To me, there is doubt. We don't know what was said, at all. It is your supposition, and it colors the rest of your thought.

Speaking of not having heard from the captain...he could very easily have presented his side of the story and we might be able to arrive at the facts. If I was the captain and I felt I was in the right, I would be all over this thread explaining my side. This would only happen if that skipper is interested in the internet while he is out cruising. There are some of us that focus on the real world, rather than play "internet."

However, if a person felt perhaps he was in the wrong or didn't feel like he had much of a leg to stand on, he'd distance himself from this thread. Possibly, but there are plenty of reasons he would not that have nothing to do with what you suggest: gone fishing, swimming, exploring inland, partying with his nephew he took with him....

Think about it, if someone started a thread about you and it wasn't true, wouldn't you make sure to correct the OP about the truth, or at least your side? The fact that the captain is a member on here and chooses not to tell his side should be speaking volumes to all of us. Maybe, maybe not, see above. Peoples' values differ.

If the captain has another take on this situation, I'd love to hear it, I'm very open minded. I've changed my mind plenty of times in the past and will probably even more so in the future. All it takes is a logical, ethical, compelling argument based on verifiable facts or the truth.
When we look at situations, our own values inform our opinions, which is why two or more people can look at the same situation and think differently about it. If you want the skipper to join the thread, why not send him a PM?

ann
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Old 28-01-2016, 23:44   #368
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

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if someone started a thread about you and it wasn't true, wouldn't you make sure to correct the OP about the truth, or at least your side?
Nope. Why bother? This is a forum, people have opinions (and that's fine, who said we all have to agree on everything?) and will have them no matter who says what. Can't please everybody.

I've seen some crap posted about me a while back (not on this forum). After collecting my jaw from the floor I read everything again and decided it wasn't worth getting into a "someone is wrong on the internet" discussion.

I'm a single woman living on a boat, which is very rare around here. Some people (mostly women, tbh) have an opinion the second they figure out it's just me and there's no man in the picture. Some women respond somewhat nasty. That'll never change, no matter what I do or don't do, so I pretty much ignore it.

Same is true for this topic: the OP won't ever change his opinion, and posting here will just cost the skipper a lot of energy he can probably waste on something a little more fun or important
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Old 29-01-2016, 00:19   #369
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

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Nope. Why bother? This is a forum, people have opinions (and that's fine, who said we all have to agree on everything?) and will have them no matter who says what. Can't please everybody.

I've seen some crap posted about me a while back (not on this forum). After collecting my jaw from the floor I read everything again and decided it wasn't worth getting into a "someone is wrong on the internet" discussion.

I'm a single woman living on a boat, which is very rare around here. Some people (mostly women, tbh) have an opinion the second they figure out it's just me and there's no man in the picture. Some women respond somewhat nasty. That'll never change, no matter what I do or don't do, so I pretty much ignore it.

Same is true for this topic: the OP won't ever change his opinion, and posting here will just cost the skipper a lot of energy he can probably waste on something a little more fun or important


It seems very odd to me that you wouldn't bother defending your own honor on the internet, but you've spent a lot of time defending the actions of the captain, whom you've never met.

One saying that is proven true over and over again: actions speak louder than words.
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Old 29-01-2016, 00:31   #370
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

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Originally Posted by socaldmax View Post
SNIP

Speaking of not having heard from the captain...

he could very easily have presented his side of the story and we might be able to arrive at the facts. If I was the captain and I felt I was in the right, I would be all over this thread explaining my side.

SNIP
I thought the captain was sailing from Florida down island, probably with limited or even no internet access.

I sorta posted earlier and have not seen any response to my speculation that the captain rejected the OP for more than one reason. He may have found a member of the Swedish Bikini Team to crew for him, or the OP may have started talking about how much he liked/disliked Trump and the captain disagreed with him.

My experience has been that significant decisions like taking on a crew member are not made on a single element, rather several things combine to accept or reject a crew member. Unless the crew member is on the Swedish Bikini Team.
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Old 29-01-2016, 01:10   #371
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

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Nope, never said that. I don't see any connection between what I stated and your contention that the captain isn't responsible. The reason he decided to change his mind makes no difference, whether we or anyone agrees with his reason, it's not going to change anything.

Yes, the captain has final say in who crews on his boat, but he doesn't have the right to jerk people around. He needs to make his decision prior to the crewmember flying out. I've stated it numerous times and given multiple analogies. I still have not changed my mind.

It's very simple.

WHO decided the OP should fly out there? The captain.

Who should reimburse the OP for making him waste his money by deciding afterwards that he wasn't going to be a crewmember? The CAPTAIN. It's his decision, it's his responsibility to ask all of the right questions and make his decision PRIOR to the OP paying for the flight.

I'm pretty sure if he pulled this stunt on you, you'd be on here complaining about it just like the OP did.

The final lesson I'm getting from all of this is get everything in writing, you can't trust anyone these days. I hear college students are now having to get written sexual consent contracts before they hook up to prevent the whole "she was wild and willing" vs "he got me drunk and took advantage of me" crap that so often goes on. Pretty sad.

OTOH, it probably would have saved Mike Tyson a lot of money and jail time.
You don't get it both ways.

Either the Captain has the right to do as he pleases, the OP's travel costs are irrelevant (as you stated in the post before last)...or the situation that lead to the OP being denied passage is relevant (about 3-4 posts ago you said it wasn't relevant).

We aren't debating if the captain has the right to deny passage. We are debating if the OP should be compensated and that is entirely dependent on the situation that led up to it. Since there I no question the OP left out information, we cannot determine if the captain made a reasonable determination without having that information. The blanket idea that the captain should have asked any and all questions prior to the OP arriving is silly.

Example: You suggested sending a form asking for any and all medical information even if not relevant to his ability to sail.

Let's say the captain did as you say. The night before departure the captain takes the crew out for dinner and over drinks childhood stories are told. The OP mentions one time he had cold as a kid (normal kids cold no lingering effects)....the Captain gets quiet...After a minute the Captain says the OP doesn't need to go back to the boat as he is off the voyage for failure to disclose all medical conditions.

By your definition, the Captain asked the question and was given a false answer, so is fully justified in kicking the OP off. Most reasonable people would say it's not relevant knowing the details.

The same works in reverse as is the actual OP's situation. We need to know the details to know if the Captain was reasonable as it's just silly to expect someone to provide their full medical history up front for a volunteer trip.
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Old 29-01-2016, 01:10   #372
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Since the un-named captain has shown exceptionally good judgement so far and not gotten involved in some insipid internet argument that ultimately serves no positive purpose, I submit that he is well equipped to make good decisions (arguably better ones that the OP who started this topic then bailed) and most certainly gets my benefit of all the doubt in this thread.
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Old 29-01-2016, 01:26   #373
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

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You don't get it both ways.

Either the Captain has the right to do as he pleases, the OP's travel costs are irrelevant (as you stated in the post before last)...or the situation that lead to the OP being denied passage is relevant (about 3-4 posts ago you said it wasn't relevant).

We aren't debating if the captain has the right to deny passage. We are debating if the OP should be compensated and that is entirely dependent on the situation that led up to it. Since there I no question the OP left out information, we cannot determine if the captain made a reasonable determination without having that information. The blanket idea that the captain should have asked any and all questions prior to the OP arriving is silly.

Example: You suggested sending a form asking for any and all medical information even if not relevant to his ability to sail.

Let's say the captain did as you say. The night before departure the captain takes the crew out for dinner and over drinks childhood stories are told. The OP mentions one time he had cold as a kid (normal kids cold no lingering effects)....the Captain gets quiet...After a minute the Captain says the OP doesn't need to go back to the boat as he is off the voyage for failure to disclose all medical conditions.

By your definition, the Captain asked the question and was given a false answer, so is fully justified in kicking the OP off. Most reasonable people would say it's not relevant knowing the details.

The same works in reverse as is the actual OP's situation. We need to know the details to know if the Captain was reasonable as it's just silly to expect someone to provide their full medical history up front for a volunteer trip.
Sorry, but you've taken opinion, speculation and supposition to such an absurd extreme I'm not even going to try to address any of it.
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Old 29-01-2016, 01:49   #374
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

ok, i declare its a draw
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Old 29-01-2016, 02:19   #375
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

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Sorry, but you've taken opinion, speculation and supposition to such an absurd extreme I'm not even going to try to address any of it.
Just following you down the rabbit hole...ie: the captain is supposed to know what health issues to ask about ahead of time.
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