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Old 20-01-2016, 19:43   #16
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

I believe I happen to know the other side of the story.

Assuming this is the same boat, he was quite concerned about your health conditions which you did not mention here and perhaps did not mention prior to your meeting.

The skipper does voyage on a shoestring, but has his business operating at home and providing modest income whilst he's away.


I believe he was expecting another crew that didn't show at all. Should that guy pay him? I'm honestly surprised you got the $260, again assuming this is the same boat. He is a relatively nice guy and obviously felt bad.
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Old 20-01-2016, 19:56   #17
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

If the skipper is concerned about the health of a potential crew, this is a serious matter, especially if going foreign. Once signed on, if the crew member becomes ill and must return to the port of origin, the skipper can be held liable for that expense. for a low bucks cruise, this could be a disaster, with both fiscal and manning downsides.

So for both sides of this transaction, it is very important to be really upfront about such issues. I of course have no idea if this specific case was driven by health worries...

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Old 20-01-2016, 20:15   #18
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Blowing a truckload of cash for no reason whatsoever is actually a pretty good reality check for liveaboard dreams 🤑
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Old 20-01-2016, 20:22   #19
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

^ Made me LOL for real -- funny cos it's true

And IF this is the same boat and IF it was about a health concern, then I fully understand the skipper.
I would not take anyone with me with health issues - just not a responsible thing to do.
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Old 20-01-2016, 20:51   #20
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boatguy30 View Post
I believe I happen to know the other side of the story.

Assuming this is the same boat, he was quite concerned about your health conditions which you did not mention here and perhaps did not mention prior to your meeting.

The skipper does voyage on a shoestring, but has his business operating at home and providing modest income whilst he's away.


I believe he was expecting another crew that didn't show at all. Should that guy pay him? I'm honestly surprised you got the $260, again assuming this is the same boat. He is a relatively nice guy and obviously felt bad.
Thats a better story than the one my petty brain cooked up. Thanks for posting. I needed a reality check. Yes, getting his crew in safely is the skippers responsibility and this proves the point.
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Old 20-01-2016, 21:14   #21
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

I often have people aboard and everyone is crew. No dead weight. And I do get to know people and discuss rules. But if someone had a large expense to get to the boat and I reject them. I would feel obligated to reimburse their expenses.
Long term captains doing passages can be fussy. Some of it is created by bad experiences. I wouldn't want to be days from port with a problem crew.
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Old 20-01-2016, 21:23   #22
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boatguy30 View Post
I believe I happen to know the other side of the story.

Assuming this is the same boat, he was quite concerned about your health conditions which you did not mention here and perhaps did not mention prior to your meeting.

The skipper does voyage on a shoestring, but has his business operating at home and providing modest income whilst he's away.


I believe he was expecting another crew that didn't show at all. Should that guy pay him? I'm honestly surprised you got the $260, again assuming this is the same boat. He is a relatively nice guy and obviously felt bad.
Boatguy-

It is the same boat and that was the skipper's concern, my issue isn't with the skipper's right to make a decision, it's with the timing and fallout of the decision. The captain of a boat is the captain, it's his decision. However, he took me on as crew- caused me to spend money, to prepare and travel to his location. And after that money was spent he welched on our deal.

He wanted free crew, he got free crew, didn't like the free crew he got and thought the bulk of the cost of his welching should be on the crew. BS.

BTW, the "health issue" that the skipper was concerned about has never caused me to miss a day of work in 36 years, never limited my activity and you would not know I had it unless you had a laboratory or asked me a question which I would answer truthfully. And I have a PhD in the study of this health issue.
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Old 20-01-2016, 21:30   #23
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

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Originally Posted by DreaminFred View Post
It is the same boat and that was the skipper's concern, // after that money was spent he welched on our deal.
Not so sure about the "welshing" out of the deal -- health is a serious concern, and not missing a day of work on land is not the same as going off-shore on a boat, especially not when someone else is responsible for that ship & trip ...

Did you guys discuss this issue before you started investing and flew to the boat, or did he only learn about it after you arrived? Cos it sounds like he didn't know before you got there, and you only told him because he asked the right question.
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Old 20-01-2016, 22:08   #24
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post
Not so sure about the "welshing" out of the deal -- health is a serious concern, and not missing a day of work on land is not the same as going off-shore on a boat, especially not when someone else is responsible for that ship & trip ...

Did you guys discuss this issue before you started investing and flew to the boat, or did he only learn about it after you arrived? Cos it sounds like he didn't know before you got there, and you only told him because he asked the right question.
Lizzy-

Can you know what questions to answer before they're asked? I'm not a mind reader. This "issue" has never been an issue before in my work or (fairly extensive) sailing experience.

Again, no issue with the skipper's right to make a decision not to my liking. The issue is who should bear the cost of the decision?

Rank has its privileges, rank has its responsibilities.
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Old 20-01-2016, 22:19   #25
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Voluntary , from the Oxford dictionary - 'made without return in money or other benefit'

I have been in this position, in the hope of an ocean passage for mileage building to my log for YM, but it cost me 5 X more than you, it was a mixture of weather and the yachts seaworthiness and the skips decision
but it does come down to what is agreed and maybe as you, I am a little wiser from that experience,
as I was once told
" you can learn from anyone, even if it's not how to do it !"
My be as others have said above, it's good financial prep for a life as a live aboard
At the end of the day, the skip is legally responsible for you once you are aboard , the table may well be turned one day and I suspect you will be a more reasonable skip if you need crew because of this situation
I hope it hasn't put off the idea of voluntary crewing it can be so beneficial, all the best on your plans.




Sent from my iPad.......i apologise for the auto corrects !!!
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Old 20-01-2016, 22:25   #26
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreaminFred View Post
The issue is who should bear the cost of the decision?
Yes, I understand, and that is a valid question.

As I said before, it depends on what was agreed on before you started spending money, and the reason for the decision.

From everything we've learned about this specific situation, you guys we're both 'all set', so to speak, and you had certain expectations. Those may be valid, but expectations aren't an agreement.

The skipper seems to feel bad about the whole thing as well, and gave you what money he had at the time - not having planned on having to say no, he didn't have anything organised for this unexpected return home.

What one captain might find an acceptable risk, another captain won't. Which is why it helps to mention these things right off the bat.

I think this situation s*cked for both of you, and could have been prevented if you had told him about your health issue earlier. These things really do matter when taking a crew member off-shore. Whether or not it's an acceptable risk is for the captain to decide, not the crew member, as the captain is the one who's responsible.

So all in all, as bad as I feel for you -and I do- I also fully understand the captain. Sounds like he did the best he could at the time. And no, he should have to foot the bill for your omission ...

IMHO anyway, FWIW
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Old 20-01-2016, 22:40   #27
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreaminFred View Post
Lizzy-

Can you know what questions to answer before they're asked? I'm not a mind reader. This "issue" has never been an issue before in my work or (fairly extensive) sailing experience.

Again, no issue with the skipper's right to make a decision not to my liking. The issue is who should bear the cost of the decision?

Rank has its privileges, rank has its responsibilities.
You really can't expect much in way of help from here. We have no idea what your 'health issue' is and therefore no one here can really empathise with you. We can have sympathy but that's as far as it can go.

As to your question who should foot the bill? You should. You have indicated this 'health condition' wasn't discussed prior to the agreement, so it's a new consideration for the skipper. Unless he was being discrimatory or over cautious, which 'we' in cyber land can't answer for unless you want to fill us in on 'All' the facts and not just what you want us to know.
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Old 20-01-2016, 22:56   #28
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreaminFred View Post
Boatguy-

It is the same boat and that was the skipper's concern, my issue isn't with the skipper's right to make a decision, it's with the timing and fallout of the decision. The captain of a boat is the captain, it's his decision. However, he took me on as crew- caused me to spend money, to prepare and travel to his location. And after that money was spent he welched on our deal.

He wanted free crew, he got free crew, didn't like the free crew he got and thought the bulk of the cost of his welching should be on the crew. BS.

BTW, the "health issue" that the skipper was concerned about has never caused me to miss a day of work in 36 years, never limited my activity and you would not know I had it unless you had a laboratory or asked me a question which I would answer truthfully. And I have a PhD in the study of this health issue.
I think "welching" is an extremely strong word, and inappropriate in this circumstance. Frankly the skipper obviously needed crew and the inconvenience to him would likewise have been great. In a neutral judgement I would say that he is a good skipper for having taken the no doubt tough decision to forgo the crew he had deemed he needed and had obviously invested time and care in selecting, for this voyage. Further, he was himself out of pocket. It seems your gripe is that he didn't cover ALL your costs, including your time/opportunity cost. Well… you cost him time and opportunity as well, especially as you only disclosed the medical condition on arrival for the trip, obviously leaving him with little time to find another crewmember, something which he had obviously thought was dealt with and for which he had exhibited long care and planning, but yet you disregard this in your post and your reasoning. Further, it sounds very much to me like you are EXTREMELY aware of this physical condition of yours (do you genuinely hold a PhD in this subject, or was that a hyperbole? Either way it is obviously foremost in your mind). And yet it sounds rather like you failed to inform the skipper of this condition prior to arrival at the vessel. That somewhat sounds like deception on your part. And now you come on an international forum to complain about it? This makes me wonder whether it was only the medical condition which fed into the skipper's decision. I am extremely careful about who I take offshore. A good skipper must be. Any hint of deception or similar and the deal is well off. Your version seems to me to be your version. You came on here with it, and signally failed to disclose the very thing you failed to disclose to this skipper, and then seek to place the blame entirely on him and get us to cheerlead for your extraction of your entire costs (plus opportunity cost/time lost) from the guy you did the same thing to. You equally fail to acknowledge the debits and costs to the skipper in question, which are not trivial. This seems rather self regarding. You go on rather in the OP about the intense questioning which was answered "frankly and honestly" etc. etc., which seems to me to be seeking do hide the fact that you knew all along that you were concealing this fact from him, and you are now trying to shift the blame on to him for not having guessed it in a game of 20 questions! None of this impresses me, at all.

Personally my "gut" is with the skipper on this one, rather strongly.
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Old 20-01-2016, 22:59   #29
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

I was approached by a guy today that I took as crew on a 2 day trip down the coast. I had sailed with him before, and we got along well. It was rough the first night, and he got seasick. I gave him some meds, but he was still having problems holding things down. By the next morning he had a urinary tract infection. I gave him antibiotics and pressed on because the the weather window was tight witha gale forecast for the day after we got in.

What he told me today was that he was still recovering from this trip which happened over two months ago. Multiple doctor's visits and 3 courses of antibiotics.

The point is, he was healthy when he signed on, and his illness was unexpected, but I was glad we weren't at sea any longer. Health issues can be a nightmare at sea when your body is stressed.
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Old 21-01-2016, 00:03   #30
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreaminFred View Post
Boatguy-

It is the same boat and that was the skipper's concern, my issue isn't with the skipper's right to make a decision, it's with the timing and fallout of the decision. The captain of a boat is the captain, it's his decision. However, he took me on as crew- caused me to spend money, to prepare and travel to his location. And after that money was spent he welched on our deal.

He wanted free crew, he got free crew, didn't like the free crew he got and thought the bulk of the cost of his welching should be on the crew. BS.

BTW, the "health issue" that the skipper was concerned about has never caused me to miss a day of work in 36 years, never limited my activity and you would not know I had it unless you had a laboratory or asked me a question which I would answer truthfully. And I have a PhD in the study of this health issue.
Thanks Fred. Your origional post sounded true and so does the above story.
Don't let it dampen your long term dreams Pal.
More importantly, I hope it doesn't effect your demeanour.
Thanks for tell it all.

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