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Old 13-08-2011, 23:35   #316
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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Originally Posted by capttman View Post
OK, can I have a gripe here? Every time I see a post with someone wanting to begin sailing all I seem to see is advice on getting ASA training take lessons etc....

My feeling is get a sunfish and go for it then a bigger and bigger till ya happy... Read a book, trial and error or OPB to learn.


Have we really become a bunch of morons who can't just do it any more or am I just old and cranky??

Come on slaughter me or agree with me or what do you think.......
I accept your challenge. With a caveat. I took a short couple of classes (roughly 10 hours with a Sunfish and 12 with a Sweet16) and am now trying to buy a buccaneer 18' and I'll try to see how much of the main can get wet between now and whenever.

(my caveat includes my wife signing me up for a class after kinda whining about not sailing since I met her. I should post in the thread about getting a woman to come along on a blue water sail too)

When I have it purchased and wet, I'll post here.
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Old 14-08-2011, 04:59   #317
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Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

As an instructor i meet hundreds of sailing students each year. I think everyone is a bit different and have different learning strategies. I meet some clients who just need a little encouragement and a push out into open water, others should take up another hobby and even after intensive sailing instruction are positively dangerous , but most people seem to enjoy the structured syllabus of ASA and RYA. They cant be knocked really, as they provide a basic framework for future learning... its all about some level of competence and safety while on the water and generally cannot fault them. However, i might seem a bit hypocritical, but also agree with the 'get out there and do it brigade'. I taught myself how to sail with a book out the library and a beat up Loch Long OD. It was steep learning curve, several boom-bangs on the head etc etc. I could probably done with some instruction but dont think a structured course would have worked for me at that time. I think the bottom line is that your never stop learning and is one of the great things about sailing. Even as a Yachtmaster Instructor i am still learning and would be arrogant of me to to think otherwise. I learn something new everyday when sailing, whether it be a lessoned learned from the crew, the boat or the weather. I share skills with the students i teach, its not one way traffic.... Sailing is about sharing!
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Old 14-08-2011, 07:13   #318
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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I accept your challenge. With a caveat. I took a short couple of classes (roughly 10 hours with a Sunfish and 12 with a Sweet16) and am now trying to buy a buccaneer 18' and I'll try to see how much of the main can get wet between now and whenever.

(my caveat includes my wife signing me up for a class after kinda whining about not sailing since I met her. I should post in the thread about getting a woman to come along on a blue water sail too)

When I have it purchased and wet, I'll post here.

There's something to be said about "learn by doing," but I'm going remind everyone of the four football players who went out into the Gulf after "learning by doing." Only one returned. Their boat was not an offshore boat. But they'd done it before successfully. They'd "learned by doing." They also anchored it off the stern, something they's "learned by doing." They didn't have a "ditch bag." They'd never needed it before (learning by doing). They didn't have a waterproof, handheld radio tethered to any of them. They didn't have an EPIRB. Most significantly, they either didn't check the weather forecast or didn't understand the significance of the front coming their way.

You can learn about all those things in a class or simply by reading a few good books.

I see boats around me all the time who don't know why their Genny sheets are on a track. They've learned by doing.

Teaching yourself is cheap but sometimes you get what you pay for.
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Old 14-08-2011, 09:08   #319
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Re: What ever happened to learn by doing ? Read a book and go for it !

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I for one am glad that the Wright brothers didn't have to go to pilots school before learning to fly.

Go out and do it
And they gave aviation the first aeroplane crash too.
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Old 14-08-2011, 09:37   #320
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Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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As an instructor i meet hundreds of sailing students each year. I think everyone is a bit different and have different learning strategies. I meet some clients who just need a little encouragement and a push out into open water, others should take up another hobby and even after intensive sailing instruction are positively dangerous , but most people seem to enjoy the structured syllabus of ASA and RYA. They cant be knocked really, as they provide a basic framework for future learning... its all about some level of competence and safety while on the water and generally cannot fault them. However, i might seem a bit hypocritical, but also agree with the 'get out there and do it brigade'. I taught myself how to sail with a book out the library and a beat up Loch Long OD. It was steep learning curve, several boom-bangs on the head etc etc. I could probably done with some instruction but dont think a structured course would have worked for me at that time. I think the bottom line is that your never stop learning and is one of the great things about sailing. Even as a Yachtmaster Instructor i am still learning and would be arrogant of me to to think otherwise. I learn something new everyday when sailing, whether it be a lessoned learned from the crew, the boat or the weather. I share skills with the students i teach, its not one way traffic.... Sailing is about sharing!
Well, I think you've hit the nail on the head. I took classes, but I also took my boat out as often as I could, and in protected waters I often took it out by myself (with safety equipment, etc.) I learned that if I went out with a more experienced sailor, as soon as anything tricky happened that sailor would take over and just do what needed to be done. I learned the most sailing the boat myself, but I also took classes and lessons. And, I read books.
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Old 17-08-2011, 04:56   #321
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Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Formal classes typically are helpful with the introduction of concepts and the building of concepts and information, by doing so, a framework of common concepts and terms are better understood between the learners, and instructor(s). In some formal classes the concepts are reinforced by the performance demonstration by the student(s). The performance or demonstrating by the learner, learning by doing, becomes a deeper learning experience.

Students who learn by doing in a classroom form a deeper learning experience than those who are passive listeners of disseminated information. Students who learn the concepts and then attain experience, learning by doing over time and repetition, develop a deeper and broader scope of learning and skill development. Compounded learning experiences develops the master learner and usually teacher for others.

The folks who we all should be concerned about are those who gain experience --- and continue to do so -- but also continue to make the same errors again and again, and have no inclination to seek other ways to learn from these errors. In such cases, these learners for -- whatever the reason -- are not learning and potentially place others at risk.

Research has shown that learning by doing in any area is a deeper learning experience for an individual: the manner or approach in which one eventually has the opportunity to learn by doing is a matter for another discussion.

Fair Winds,
GK33
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Old 17-08-2011, 05:06   #322
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Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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Well, I think you've hit the nail on the head. I took classes, but I also took my boat out as often as I could, and in protected waters I often took it out by myself (with safety equipment, etc.) I learned that if I went out with a more experienced sailor, as soon as anything tricky happened that sailor would take over and just do what needed to be done. I learned the most sailing the boat myself, but I also took classes and lessons. And, I read books.
And that is what is wrong with so many "sessions of learning" out there. Hear it all the time from my students..."the last captain never let me touch the wheel...he just SHOWED me everything" There is a huge difference between someone with lots of experience and someone who can actualy instruct...but the rub is finding someone who can instruct that actually KNOWs a ton of stuff also.....
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Old 17-08-2011, 05:11   #323
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Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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Originally Posted by Greatketch33 View Post
Formal classes typically are helpful with the introduction of concepts and the building of concepts and information, by doing so, a framework of common concepts and terms are better understood between the learners, and instructor(s). In some formal classes the concepts are reinforced by the performance demonstration by the student(s). The performance or demonstrating by the learner, learning by doing, becomes a deeper learning experience.

Students who learn by doing in a classroom form a deeper learning experience than those who are passive listeners of disseminated information. Students who learn the concepts and then attain experience, learning by doing over time and repetition, develop a deeper and broader scope of learning and skill development. Compounded learning experiences develops the master learner and usually teacher for others.

The folks who we all should be concerned about are those who gain experience --- and continue to do so -- but also continue to make the same errors again and again, and have no inclination to seek other ways to learn from these errors. In such cases, these learners for -- whatever the reason -- are not learning and potentially place others at risk.

Research has shown that learning by doing in any area is a deeper learning experience for an individual: the manner or approach in which one eventually has the opportunity to learn by doing is a matter for another discussion.

Fair Winds,
GK33
The other group to be concerned about iis those who learn by doing but never had a situation yet...something they haven't "learned" yet. You can sail around the world and never sink, catch fire, have a near miss, etc..etc...the trick is... what have you "learned" about these events if you have never experienced them first hand? The very minimum required is some in depth reading about the topics.

Learning "from doing" and never having a problem spawned a catchy phrase....BEGINNER's LUCK!
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Old 17-08-2011, 06:31   #324
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Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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The other group to be concerned about iis those who learn by doing but never had a situation yet...something they haven't "learned" yet. You can sail around the world and never sink, catch fire, have a near miss, etc..etc...the trick is... what have you "learned" about these events if you have never experienced them first hand? The very minimum required is some in depth reading about the topics.
Reminds me of a few CF Members over the years - wanting advice / ideas only from those who have direct first hand experiance / made the same voyage as them / have exactly the same problem - leaving aside always incomplete information offered Never 2 problems exactly the same, and many things (setting fire to your head or amputating fingers) do not need any hindsight for advice, just foresight.........

Best that can be hoped for (can't demand when paying SFA ) is some useful ideas to mull over yourself and amend to fit own circumstances....the skill that can't be taught easily by others is how to think for oneself, and work through problems / solutions......I suspect on that score that there often be a 21st century thing going on
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Old 17-08-2011, 07:01   #325
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pirate Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Like most things in life its combination of the two that works best...
if I had not had my seamanship training in the RN as a lad I doubt I'd have taken on my first boat and restored her then gone soloing with the help of books to assist with the finer points...
Qualifications were just taking the exams after crunching the paper... the boat handling was down to repeated practice picking up bouys solo under motor and sail... deliberately going into drying situations and working out kedging off... playing disaster in other words...
As for experiencing a F7-8....
alone is the only way you'll find out how you'll cope...
just pick your location and day carefully....
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Old 17-08-2011, 08:27   #326
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Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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Like most things in life its combination of the two that works best...
if I had not had my seamanship training in the RN as a lad I doubt I'd have taken on my first boat and restored her then gone soloing with the help of books to assist with the finer points...
Qualifications were just taking the exams after crunching the paper... the boat handling was down to repeated practice picking up bouys solo under motor and sail... deliberately going into drying situations and working out kedging off... playing disaster in other words...
As for experiencing a F7-8....
alone is the only way you'll find out how you'll cope...
just pick your location and day carefully....

I agree. I got bit by the sailing bug in my twenties on a road trip up to Lake Champlain. Small sailing dingy my friends took me out on. Next day or two I was sailing it myself. A few years later I bought a 24 foot Bristol and my girlfriend suggested we take some week long sailing lessons during a St. Criox vacation one winter. Sounded like a good idea. I'm sure it helped me move along in my knowledge. What followed was years of sailing and cruising often by myself and lot's of books. Feel pretty confident now that I could deal with a lot of situations but, I don't go out of my way to get into them. But, I also learned from others who have been in situations too! What strikes me even with professional teachers some sailors get it and some still get into trouble:
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: THE SQUALL RULES!: Anatomy of a sinking.
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Old 17-08-2011, 18:22   #327
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I also agree. Trial and eror hands on experience should be one of the greatest parts of the adventure. Im 30 years old, don't know @#$% about sailing but going to the fl keys in a few wks to buy my first boat to live on and island hop the carib for the rest of my life if I can swing it. I wander where everyones sense of adventure went?
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Old 17-08-2011, 18:39   #328
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Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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I also agree. Trial and eror hands on experience should be one of the greatest parts of the adventure. Im 30 years old, don't know @#$% about sailing but going to the fl keys in a few wks to buy my first boat to live on and island hop the carib for the rest of my life if I can swing it. I wander where everyones sense of adventure went?
I've had friends die trying to rescue sailors that were in over their heads...sure go ahead and learn by trial and error...just don't call for help when you realize you are in over your head and the solution was 2 paragraphs in most decent reference books.

Remember a lot of sailors with GREAT respect for venturing forth have slickers 30 years old.

Awww heck...yea...go have fun...just be careful and listen a lot more than you thought possible.
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Old 17-08-2011, 18:48   #329
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Ahh ill be okay. What I plan to do is learn from other sailers and trial and error on calm days. I've read a few books but I want the adventure of trial and error. For me, I think it would be more meaningful. Im also no stranger to the sea or how hairy it can get. Been a commercial fisherman for 6 years from alaska to the south Pacific. I think while being responsible, hands on is the way for me. But thank u for your response
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Old 17-08-2011, 19:14   #330
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Re: Whatever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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Ahh ill be okay. What I plan to do is learn from other sailers and trial and error on calm days. I've read a few books but I want the adventure of trial and error. For me, I think it would be more meaningful. Im also no stranger to the sea or how hairy it can get. Been a commercial fisherman for 6 years from alaska to the south Pacific. I think while being responsible, hands on is the way for me. But thank u for your response

considering how many commercial fishermen die every year...that's one group I would advise NOT using as role models for going to sea.
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