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Old 01-08-2011, 00:05   #301
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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Great mixed reactions, see the way I see it is ya learn the trade by being an apprentice. Maybe it's because I've been sailing since I was six years old that I'm missing the point on why so much a need for structured lessons.. Medicine was learned by doing now it's screwed up by professors and academics. I learned to drive on the farm as did my kids, I guess Huxley was wrong it's not a brave new world it is a whimps paradise..
I may be new here and get banned, but you're a promoting that people who have no sailing skills go on and get a boat and learn by trail and ERROR. See that last bit? ERROR? It can get people killed, not just the noobs, it might just kill the rescuers who came for them.
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Old 01-08-2011, 04:25   #302
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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I may be new here and get banned, but you're a promoting that people who have no sailing skills go on and get a boat and learn by trail and ERROR. See that last bit? ERROR? It can get people killed, not just the noobs, it might just kill the rescuers who came for them.
Well than don't sail.. Why don't you read the whole thread or at least the last few pages to follow the entire jest of the conversation... And oh yes that is what I'm saying... : devil:
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Old 01-08-2011, 04:43   #303
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

But Capttman,

it seems like you are hedging your bets somewhat on the idea of "just go out and learn by trial and error." I seem to think you also say that people should start learning in dinghies, become competent in them and then move up to bigger boats. I will agree that, if everyone did that, they would be safer because it's hard to kill someone else by running into them with a sailing dinghy (not impossible, just hard).

However, as several other people have pointed out, not everyone starts sailing at eight. Some of us come at sailing later in life, where learning to sail by screaming around a lake on a Laser is just not an option.

Saying that everyone needs to learn sailing in one set method is just as bad as saying that everyone must wear a PFD. What matters is the end result. Licensing doesn't make you a successful captain. Dying ashore at a ripe old age after a lifetime of not hurting yourself or others does. (yes, dying ashore is preferable - as much as I would love to die at sea, it would cause my boat to become a hazard to navigation - even more than when I am at the wheel )
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Old 01-08-2011, 04:46   #304
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pirate Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

This is a silly arguement in a way... here in the UK one has no need of a 'Ticket'.... for local waters....
However should you wish to visit foriegn shores the rules to be met are theirs... which is why I have a 'Ticket'.... show up without one and you'll find you cant sail on till you've either passed a course or hired a Skipper to move your boat on....
So get trained up if your looking to travel... save yourself the grief..
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Old 01-08-2011, 06:47   #305
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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I may be new here and get banned, but you're a promoting that people who have no sailing skills go on and get a boat and learn by trail and ERROR. See that last bit? ERROR? It can get people killed, not just the noobs, it might just kill the rescuers who came for them.
Although not specifically addressed to me (and taken in good part - opinions do vary, yours is just wrong )

Short answer = yes

Long answer = Victims are way too inventive in finding (ever better ) ways to harm themselves (or others) to waste time and money on. Although I am not religous - am quite happy to subscribe to the "let god sort 'em out" approach

The Rescuers? F#ck 'em - they make their own decisions on what is possible and fits their risk profile / capacities whilst managing the risk to themselves.

One thing that never seems to crop up with ideas like these (Nanny State knows best ) is where does the money come from??? . Just because something is a good idea / would be nice doesn't automatically mean it's free ..........and in practice means the money doesn't get spent elsewhere (some additional road surfacing / barriers at an accident black spot etc etc - free longterm healthcare? )......rather than wasted on failing to keep Bozos on Boats "safe"

I have a long list of things I would personally wish for - but money is finite so I get to prioritise (and not have everything I want). Otherwise the money does run out........same for Govts. I wish I could issue Obama Dollars / IOU's that will never get repaid.........
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Old 01-08-2011, 07:08   #306
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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you're a promoting that people who have no sailing skills go on and get a boat and learn by trail and ERROR. See that last bit? ERROR? It can get people killed, not just the noobs, it might just kill the rescuers who came for them.
Yup. Good time to realise sailing is not brain surgery. Even the Vikings could do it.

Put brain into gear and hit the bay and learn to sail with the wind in your hair.

Then if you want to learn to sail fast go race in the local yacht club.

The Gate Keepers want us to line their pockets for lessons and licenses but they imho are a fraud. Learn yourself and if there's some specific lessons you want on a particular subject do them, but with your own terms.



A brain at a wheel is fine to run a boat.


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Old 01-08-2011, 07:34   #307
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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Yup. Good time to realise sailing is not brain surgery. Even the Vikings could do it.

Put brain into gear and hit the bay and learn to sail with the wind in your hair.

Then if you want to learn to sail fast go race in the local yacht club.

The Gate Keepers want us to line their pockets for lessons and licenses but they imho are a fraud. Learn yourself and if there's some specific lessons you want on a particular subject do them, but with your own terms.



A brain at a wheel is fine to run a boat.


Mark
Right on Mark. It's amazing that those Vikings were able to operate those boats, no less build them without engineering degrees. Why is it that there are always organized groups of busybodies ready to take the joy out of everything? The education fraud runs deep: Universities, state, and local schools--You can find a "degree" for anything with the guarantee of an A.
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Old 01-08-2011, 16:17   #308
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Thought 1 - as an ASA instructor, I would NEVER tell anyone that "the ASA way" is the ONLY way to learn to sail. If you don't want to learn in a class - don't. Buy a boat, hit the water, learn by doing. BUT, where do you get the right to tell anyone else that they need to do it the same way? If you hate the "nanny state," then DON'T BE A NANNY YOURSELF! There is nothing wrong with paying to learn how to start out. You get an instructor who will work with your schedule and will teach you the things you want to learn - if you don't get that, go to a different school.

Thought 2 - Yep, those darn Vikings sure were better at sailing. Of course, they lived in a marine environment from the time they were kids and they learned by doing cruises of weeks, if not years - and they never left the dock after just buying the boat. They learned by spending a couple of years being the boat boy - then progressing up to helmsmen, etc. For someone who wants to sail ten or fifteen weekends a year and maybe a long week chartering in the tropics, that might not be the best way to learn to sail.

Bottom line - I don't see very many eight yesar olds on this site. If an eight year old were to ask, then yes, learning to sail in a dinghy might be OK. For most of the people on this site - paying someone to teach them the basics is not a bad deal.
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Old 01-08-2011, 16:44   #309
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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Thought 1 - as an ASA instructor, I would NEVER tell anyone that "the ASA way" is the ONLY way to learn to sail. If you don't want to learn in a class - don't. Buy a boat, hit the water, learn by doing. BUT, where do you get the right to tell anyone else that they need to do it the same way? If you hate the "nanny state," then DON'T BE A NANNY YOURSELF! There is nothing wrong with paying to learn how to start out. You get an instructor who will work with your schedule and will teach you the things you want to learn - if you don't get that, go to a different school.

Thought 2 - Yep, those darn Vikings sure were better at sailing. Of course, they lived in a marine environment from the time they were kids and they learned by doing cruises of weeks, if not years - and they never left the dock after just buying the boat. They learned by spending a couple of years being the boat boy - then progressing up to helmsmen, etc. For someone who wants to sail ten or fifteen weekends a year and maybe a long week chartering in the tropics, that might not be the best way to learn to sail.

Bottom line - I don't see very many eight yesar olds on this site. If an eight year old were to ask, then yes, learning to sail in a dinghy might be OK. For most of the people on this site - paying someone to teach them the basics is not a bad deal.
""as an ASA instructor, I would NEVER tell anyone that "the ASA way" is the ONLY way to learn to sail""" That's all I'm saying you don't need a piece of paper to know what you are doing

""Bottom line - I don't see very many eight yesar olds on this site."" and I have finished many texts with some similar to this each time, how much cruising have you done and no one seems to want to answer that, I would take their comments much more seriously if they had a good amount of salt in their veins : devil:
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Old 01-08-2011, 17:38   #310
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Sorry, Capttman, didn't mean to imply there that you were saying it - however, there have been others in this thread that ahve definitely left the impression that they feel anyone taking a class is wrong - and that anyone who learned to sail by taking a class is "incompetent."

As for sea time, I spent most of eight years at sea over a fifteen year period, in the US Navy, which is where I learned to navigate and handle small boats, among other important skills (anyone need a bulkhead painted?). Then I spent another ten years owning small powerboats before I started sailing about ten years ago (I became a sailor because I discovered I was a lousy pilot and it is a whole lot easier to get hurt learning to fly a small plane ). Finally, I have lived aboard my current boat for the past six years. I am somewhat landlocked right now, so I am not sailing as much as I'd like, but I do operate the boat at least five or six days a month, out and about.

Of course, I haven't taken over any English castles lately, but then again, I don't have to share my boat with those guys from the Capital One commercials either!
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Old 01-08-2011, 19:19   #311
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My early post probably started this "courses are wrong" slant. That is not what I meant in any way. The only possible negative I may have is that the courses are too shallow. Or the instructors to easy. The opinion I meant to convey is that of all the sailors I have sailed with those who said they had acquired their skills thru a course were pretty much worthless compared to those who had just been generally messing about in boats.
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Old 01-08-2011, 19:47   #312
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Having someone show you the basics of sailing is probably the way most of us learned. Just getting to know the terminology is a lot easier if you are shown rather than told. Hands-on is what modern ed. is all about and sailing is a good example. Programs for kids in one design boats are great although largely limited to the rich who can afford to belong to yacht clubs. Just don't push to enact more laws to tell people they have to pay money to get some dubious piece of paper in order to participate. I believe that, as a culture, we have become way too dependent upon group approval and "certificates," "certification," and Byzantine red tape for every activity under the sun. People are reluctant to do anything without some group's approval. We now live in the land of NO, cordoned off, delineated, and stifled. My observation is that in the last 50 years, our freedom has very significantly declined, giving way to group-think and a population much more compliant, dependent, and easier to manipulate. This is quite obvious to those of us who grew up before uber-regulation and is way, way more dangerous than not being "certified."
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Old 02-08-2011, 10:08   #313
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

There is a fine line between being 'certified' and being 'certifiable'. The only advantages of a certficate that I can see is that an owner may choose you to deliver his pride and joy over one who is not certified and most insurance companies require it if you are moving a boat they have underwritten and you are not the owner.
Carrying passengers requires certification because the government has decided that folks out for a day of sightseeing or fishing are too thick or drunk to be driven around by someone whose background they don't know.
There are many here who's skills, judgement and boat handling ability are the equal or superior to those who hold licenses. Just depends on what you choose to do with your or someone elses boat.
Boatman bring up a good point... there are many places in the world that require certification to move even your own vessel.
There is a down side to holding a license. If you are ever in an accident at sea, you will be held to a higher standard of conduct in seamanship that the weekend warrior who ran in to you. Capt Phil
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Old 02-08-2011, 15:46   #314
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Would like to see a list of those governments not permitting me to "move my own boat" so as to make sure to never go there. I know the Azores (Portugal) has some cert. requirements and have crossed them off my "wanna go there" list (although I do). Seems like they, in their dire financial condition, would be welcoming all sailors with a few bucks to spend but I guess governmental meddling has outweighed common sense. I know bareboat chartering rules are pretty strict around the Med. but have not heard of places requiring too much in the way of certifications for your own boat. Boatman, can you provide some specifics?
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Old 02-08-2011, 15:49   #315
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Daddle,

I agree that there are people who have learned at "schools" where the instructors were "too easy." Generally, I haven't seen that in "stand-alone" schools or schools that are associated with charters (for example, SailTime uses the ASA system for training its new users). I have seen people who "taught" with brokers who I might question - but that's because the student owns the boat and it's their call.

As to "certification" - I used to work in the IT area, which has a plethora of "certifications" and what I used to find was that the "certification" was a starting point of knowledge. A person who was certified generally had the very basics and I could generally trust that they were teachable. I came across people occasionally who thought that their "certification" meant they were already trained and knew what they were doing. These were known by a corporate identifier - "former employees." When I teach an ASA 101 class, I let my students know at the end of the course that they have just learned enough to start learning how to sail.

With all that said, I will say that the ocean doesn't care what your ASA certification is, or whether or not you have a Captain's license from the Coast Guard. That's the only thing that really matters.
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