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Old 29-07-2011, 15:50   #286
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

I used to teach sailing as a business and I still teach coastal navigation both electronic and paper based so I declare an interest. It is true that you can jump on a boat and knock about until you get a sense of the ropes and for many of us we started out this way. I sailed for 15 years before I took formal lessons and completed my qualifications. You can also have a lot of fun doing this if you choose where you sail wisely.

Offshore sailing though can be a very different experience. Not only are you responsible for yourself but also for the safety of your crew. Is there any other form of transport you would get on board knowing the driver was self taught without anyone having a good look at them to see how much they really know as to how much they think they know.

Sailing classes will teach you a lot about the forces acting on your yacht, why it behaves the way it does and how to get the most out of it. If you do a competent navigation course you will be better equipped to know where you are and what the risks are

More importantly a sailing course will show you what you don't know and make you far more effective as a manager of risk. This may sound poncy but dont forget -- when you take a boat offshore with a crew particularly a novice crew and the very worst happens it is too late to have regrets.

Sorry for the lecture sailing is a lot of fun but don't knock those who choose to take a class. It is just there way of having a go

fair winds
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Old 29-07-2011, 16:03   #287
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

I originally started this thread, read it, trying to ask why is it that in the USA do we think just because one dose not have a piece of paper or license or a class is he or she looked at as if they don't know...
Congress does not have any experience in govering and send many of our youth to wars, and don't balance budgets etc but lets not go there...

I have over 50,000 nm under my keel, safely I may add, without any formal training...It just gets the hair up on my back that our new society says u most be regulated.....
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Old 29-07-2011, 16:21   #288
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Upfront statement - I am an ASA certified instructor and have been teaching for five years.

I have no objection to people "learning by doing" and I have never forced anyone to take a class from me. I do know that most states require a "basic boating" class for the kids, at least, and ASA 101 fills that requirement in most states, but I have never had a student take a class to fulfill that requirement. I have had a lot of people take a class either because they just bought a boat and wanted some hands-on instruction on the boat (I taught for a dealership, so it was included as part of the sale) or because they didn't own a boat and didn't know if they wanted to buy, so they were taking a class as a way to see if they wanted to go on.

The advantage to taking an ASA class or a US Sailing class is that the instructor has been through a formal evaluation, is licensed by the CG (at least to OUPV) and is using a structured set of materials. Much like any other project, this says something about the "service provider."

You can have a licensed plumber work on your house, or an unlicensed one. You might get a good "unlicensed" plumber who hasn't gotten a license simply because he refuses to go through all of the steps to get licensed - or you might get a guy with a toolbox, a truck and an attitude. All the ASA system does is provide a layer of protection from the "bad guys" - it doesn't prevent you from getting one, just lessens the odds.

Some people can pick up a wrench and starting working on their plumbing - some people want to know what they are doing first. As long as no one is forcing you one way or the other, what difference does it make to you if someone else goes to a professional instructor?
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Old 29-07-2011, 16:26   #289
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Quote:
Originally Posted by capttman View Post
I originally started this thread, read it, trying to ask why is it that in the USA do we think just because one dose not have a piece of paper or license or a class is he or she looked at as if they don't know...
Congress does not have any experience in govering and send many of our youth to wars, and don't balance budgets etc but lets not go there...

I have over 50,000 nm under my keel, safely I may add, without any formal training...It just gets the hair up on my back that our new society says u most be regulated.....
I'm not going to engage in a politically driven argument any further. I just want to point out that the number and caliber of people taking the wheel of vessels and cars has changed significantly. Once upon a time, a clueless person might not try half of what they try now thanks to increased electronic aids and the wealth of knowledge from this here new-fangled Internets machine, which makes people feel that they know something.

This is very much akin to the people who ASSume they know what teaching is like because they have had teachers.

I agree that there is too much regulation. However, I believe large organizations such as the U.S., USN, USCG, Chapman nautical guides, Weems and Plath, and the Cruiser's Forum offer a name that people can value and have a reasonable expectation about. We choose a reputable name when we buy a new expensive something. We don't seek out some pirate, who is 'free'. That 'free' pirate won't be anywhere to be found after the money is spent.

I apologize again if I have offended, but I hope that, regardless of your view, that your brain has been stirred.
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Old 29-07-2011, 16:27   #290
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Seriously, would you want the highways to be full of people with no licenses and big vehicles?

Huh? I think you're missing something. They already are and they just started to allow trucks from south of the border to drive on our roads. Corporate greed...
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Old 29-07-2011, 16:32   #291
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Sorta have to agree with NJTeacher here (and I am NOT a big fan of government). Up to fifty years ago, boating wasn't a problem, simply because there just weren't many amateur boaters. Before you got cvommand of anything larger than a raft, you went through a long and difficult apprenticeship. You didn't just buy a boat, you earned it.

Now, the only requirement is a credit limit. To be honest, the idea of licensing mariners is not a new one - it's existed for a century or so. The difference is that there weren't so many "amateurs" out there.
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Old 29-07-2011, 18:55   #292
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Maybe there are a lot of unemployed ASA instructors. I am an RYA instructor and I have Commercial marine qualifications and I am never short of work. A lot of the people I taught I safely undertaking blue water cruises and regularly keep in touch. none have run aground, none have lost a person overboard, none have had an insurance claim. I am not arguing against teaching yourself but don't knock those who do make the effort and learn through a school

Fair winds
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Old 29-07-2011, 21:58   #293
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Not so certain I agree with the premise that one MUST complete a course and be certified to operate a vessel for pleasure. Nor do I think with all the learning resources available today a wise person will forgo any training and jump aboard what ever craft his/her pocket can finance.
Courses and cretifications are a fairly recent resource and restriction on pleasure craft but have been a part of commercial mariners life for at least 200 years.
Being 'old school', I learned by doing and watching. It was only later that I appreciated the value of a ticket working commercially on the water and sought certification for job opportunities open only to those who had a license. Rightly or wrongly I never regretted studying nor would I have missed growing up in a commercial marine environment.
Both paths have merit... it depends on what you plan to do with the skills you have learned and been certified that you possess these skills. Capt Phil
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Old 29-07-2011, 23:32   #294
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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I think we are thinking (not to sound ignorant) about cruising. At this point our plans dont include much ocean travel....we were thinking more like the great loop but just really taking our time....stopping here stopping there. In other words...living on the boat but not parked at a dock somewhere. <-----does that make any sense or are we in cloud 9?
As a Native New Jerseyian (is that a word?) i think that makes sense. Go as soon as you can. Just start moseying on to someplace else and soak it up...doesn't really matter what boat you live on, just that you do.
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Old 29-07-2011, 23:39   #295
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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Not so certain I agree with the premise that one MUST complete a course and be certified to operate a vessel for pleasure. Nor do I think with all the learning resources available today a wise person will forgo any training and jump aboard what ever craft his/her pocket can finance.
Courses and cretifications are a fairly recent resource and restriction on pleasure craft but have been a part of commercial mariners life for at least 200 years.
Being 'old school', I learned by doing and watching. It was only later that I appreciated the value of a ticket working commercially on the water and sought certification for job opportunities open only to those who had a license. Rightly or wrongly I never regretted studying nor would I have missed growing up in a commercial marine environment.
Both paths have merit... it depends on what you plan to do with the skills you have learned and been certified that you possess these skills. Capt Phil
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Old 29-07-2011, 23:51   #296
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... and regularly keep in touch. none have run aground
Hmmm. Pretty thin course. I'd only want to go with people who have run aground a few times.
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Old 30-07-2011, 01:08   #297
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Well dropping the keel and checking the bolts is pretty expensive and the last yacht I heard of that went aground was a write off. American boat sailing across the pacific and could not find a way around the reef off Gladstone in Queensland
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Old 30-07-2011, 08:18   #298
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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Originally Posted by DonPunch View Post
Well dropping the keel and checking the bolts is pretty expensive and the last yacht I heard of that went aground was a write off. American boat sailing across the pacific and could not find a way around the reef off Gladstone in Queensland
Oh, come on and be serious! If you don't know the difference between going aground and driving your boat up on a reef, why then I'd hate to be one of your students. Going aground is a common enough event, and surely does not always require "dropping the keel and checking the bolts". Good grief, man...

As an American yottie who has successfully passed through the gap between Llewellyn and Fitzroy reefs a number of times, I did wonder about that incident, but fail to see what bearing it has on the subject.

Cheers,

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Old 30-07-2011, 08:34   #299
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Quote:
Originally Posted by NJtheteacher View Post
I'm not going to engage in a politically driven argument any further. I just want to point out that the number and caliber of people taking the wheel of vessels and cars has changed significantly. Once upon a time, a clueless person might not try half of what they try now thanks to increased electronic aids and the wealth of knowledge from this here new-fangled Internets machine, which makes people feel that they know something.

This is very much akin to the people who ASSume they know what teaching is like because they have had teachers.

I agree that there is too much regulation. However, I believe large organizations such as the U.S., USN, USCG, Chapman nautical guides, Weems and Plath, and the Cruiser's Forum offer a name that people can value and have a reasonable expectation about. We choose a reputable name when we buy a new expensive something. We don't seek out some pirate, who is 'free'. That 'free' pirate won't be anywhere to be found after the money is spent.

I apologize again if I have offended, but I hope that, regardless of your view, that your brain has been stirred.
hmmmmm how many miles have you sailed offshore and or inland? I think u would be surprised how much care most people take, yes there are a few bad eggs but even some licensed drivers are bad..

whats you point, if it is large organizations are good, wow my opinion is you are way off base.
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Old 30-07-2011, 09:37   #300
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

can see it now---
not being able to return to "home " port because suddenly one REQUIRES a license to operate a boat and is ticketed to the tune of wtf for not having one, and /or removal of said boat from his/her possession because was out for 20 yrs USING his /her boat in the proper manner......
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