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Old 13-07-2011, 18:50   #226
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Maybe most sailors agree that people learn in different ways, one-size-fits-all advice does not, and most people learn best from a variety of sources, practice, and feedback. Beyond that point, it seems we lose consensus very quickly.

-- Some people do well learning mostly on their own mostly on small boats and some don't do so well on dinghies or have their own reasons for starting on something bigger.

-- Some people find pleasure in being in a structured learning environment and some people detest being in a classroom or structured learning situation.

-- Some people find lessons expensive, and some people find that cramming a bunch of lessons together without lots of practice time in between shortchanges them on an opportunity to digest the lessons, experiment with different techniques, and come up with questions and ideas. Others get a good feeling out of "drinking from the firehose" and seeing how fast they can come up to speed.

-- Some people can sail by themselves in uncrowded, protected areas on inexpensive boats where the cost of a bad experiment is minimal. Others have panicky families, challenging sailing environments, expensive boats, judgmental spouses, or even more expensive neighbors' boats very close to hand, where the cost of a mistake can be much more than the cost of lessons.

-- Some people are blessed to have friends and neighbors who are good teachers and live close to lots of resources for improving their sailing (community sailing centers, racing associations, clubs and co-ops, boating safety groups, community colleges with boating programs) and are easily able to find a good skipper and talk their way onto a boat. Others are not so fortunate.

-- People vary in their tolerance for failure, courage/foolhardiness, need for excitement, sociability, common sense, mechanical ability, health, disabilities, coordination and balance, confidence, language and listening skills, budget, patience, time available, learning styles, and other life and boating skills. They have very different reasons for being attracted to sailing, and their interests are likely to evolve and grow as they learn more about the sport, are exposed to different kinds of sailing, learn more about what they do and don't like on the water and in boats, and learn more about themselves.

So, what are we going to do with that one-size-fits-all advice? Where's Procrustes' bed when you really need a nice peaceful nap? (Προκρούστης, son of the sea god Poseidon, a nice sailing examplar)
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Old 13-07-2011, 18:56   #227
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgscpat View Post
Maybe most sailors agree that people learn in different ways, one-size-fits-all advice does not, and most people learn best from a variety of sources, practice, and feedback. Beyond that point, it seems we lose consensus very quickly.

-- Some people do well learning mostly on their own mostly on small boats and some don't do so well on dinghies or have their own reasons for starting on something bigger.

-- Some people find pleasure in being in a structured learning environment and some people detest being in a classroom or structured learning situation.

-- Some people find lessons expensive, and some people find that cramming a bunch of lessons together without lots of practice time in between shortchanges them on an opportunity to digest the lessons, experiment with different techniques, and come up with questions and ideas. Others get a good feeling out of "drinking from the firehose" and seeing how fast they can come up to speed.

-- Some people can sail by themselves in uncrowded, protected areas on inexpensive boats where the cost of a bad experiment is minimal. Others have panicky families, challenging sailing environments, expensive boats, judgmental spouses, or even more expensive neighbors' boats very close to hand, where the cost of a mistake can be less than the cost of lessons.

-- Some people are blessed to have friends and neighbors who are good teachers and live close to lots of resources for improving their sailing (community sailing centers, racing associations, clubs and co-ops, boating safety groups, community colleges with boating programs) and are easily able to find a good skipper and talk their way onto a boat. Others are not so fortunate.

-- People vary in their tolerance for failure, courage/foolhardiness, need for excitement, sociability, common sense, mechanical ability, health, disabilities, coordination and balance, confidence, language and listening skills, budget, patience, time available, learning styles, and other life and boating skills. They have very different reasons for being attracted to sailing, and their interests are likely to evolve and grow as they learn more about the sport, are exposed to different kinds of sailing, learn more about what they do and don't like on the water and in boats, and learn more about themselves.

So, what are we going to do with that one-size-fits-all advice? Where's Procrustes' bed when you really need a nice peaceful nap? (Προκρούστης, son of the sea god Poseidon, a nice sailing examplar)
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Old 13-07-2011, 19:19   #228
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgscpat View Post
Maybe most sailors agree that people learn in different ways, one-size-fits-all advice does not, and most people learn best from a variety of sources, practice, and feedback. Beyond that point, it seems we lose consensus very quickly.

-- Some people do well learning mostly on their own mostly on small boats and some don't do so well on dinghies or have their own reasons for starting on something bigger.

-- Some people find pleasure in being in a structured learning environment and some people detest being in a classroom or structured learning situation.

-- Some people find lessons expensive, and some people find that cramming a bunch of lessons together without lots of practice time in between shortchanges them on an opportunity to digest the lessons, experiment with different techniques, and come up with questions and ideas. Others get a good feeling out of "drinking from the firehose" and seeing how fast they can come up to speed.

-- Some people can sail by themselves in uncrowded, protected areas on inexpensive boats where the cost of a bad experiment is minimal. Others have panicky families, challenging sailing environments, expensive boats, judgmental spouses, or even more expensive neighbors' boats very close to hand, where the cost of a mistake can be much more than the cost of lessons.

-- Some people are blessed to have friends and neighbors who are good teachers and live close to lots of resources for improving their sailing (community sailing centers, racing associations, clubs and co-ops, boating safety groups, community colleges with boating programs) and are easily able to find a good skipper and talk their way onto a boat. Others are not so fortunate.

-- People vary in their tolerance for failure, courage/foolhardiness, need for excitement, sociability, common sense, mechanical ability, health, disabilities, coordination and balance, confidence, language and listening skills, budget, patience, time available, learning styles, and other life and boating skills. They have very different reasons for being attracted to sailing, and their interests are likely to evolve and grow as they learn more about the sport, are exposed to different kinds of sailing, learn more about what they do and don't like on the water and in boats, and learn more about themselves.

So, what are we going to do with that one-size-fits-all advice? Where's Procrustes' bed when you really need a nice peaceful nap? (Προκρούστης, son of the sea god Poseidon, a nice sailing examplar)
Well stated!
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Old 13-07-2011, 19:44   #229
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Without going back and rereading all the posts....

If you want to learn to sail and in less than a year cross an ocean by yourself...self teaching and relying on the advice of the nearby old salt might just get you killed.

Teaching yourself to sail around a local bay in dingies and graduating to cruisers after many seasons is a completely different story and certainly withing the capabilities of most reasonably skilled people.
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Old 13-07-2011, 20:00   #230
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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Without going back and rereading all the posts....

If you want to learn to sail and in less than a year cross an ocean by yourself...self teaching and relying on the advice of the nearby old salt might just get you killed.

Teaching yourself to sail around a local bay in dingies and graduating to cruisers after many seasons is a completely different story and certainly withing the capabilities of most reasonably skilled people.
I have several friends with years of experience and 100 ton licenses. They can pilot a boat, but in other areas (like choosing equipment) ... I am not sure I'd trust them.

One should be open to gathering knowledge wherever possible, but also tempering that with other experience. Personally if an explanation doesn't mesh well with other experience, chemistry, physics etc, it might very well just be an urban legend.
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Old 13-07-2011, 20:05   #231
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

"Learn by doing" also means "lean by failing". So yeah, it all depends on how much you are willing to fail at in order to learn
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Old 13-07-2011, 20:19   #232
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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If you REALLY want to to learn to sail; get on a race boat. That is a trial by fire. Those crews show little mercy.

I started on a Tartan 10 in Galveston Bay. No baby sailboats for me.

Racing improves the breed. - old Porshe ad.
Very true Jackdale, and a great way to see if you make the cut.
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Old 13-07-2011, 20:27   #233
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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"Learn by doing" also means "lean by failing". So yeah, it all depends on how much you are willing to fail at in order to learn
Failing to the point of dying could be a little etreme for most people.
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Old 13-07-2011, 20:47   #234
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

A ways back in the discussion someone suggested some ad hoc exams to display skill. I agree.

Practical ones. Go sailing, stop sniping at each other.
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Old 14-07-2011, 16:27   #235
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

capttman--yes you are an oulde grouch--lol-- but yer in good company---so we will let it by.....

if the old salt is a merchant mariner and a tallshipman, then is apprenticeship. has asa beat all to hell and back again.

would LOVE to see a dinghy sailor just hop into a large boat and sail anywhere. sorry---is more complex than that. that is like a go kart driver trying to win f-1 right out of gokarts. doesnt happen.
racing is a great way to not learn. lighten the boat, yes. mebbe teamwork. not how to successfully troubleshoot a heavy displacement cruiser or other kind of actual non racing boat. not gonna teach ye how to work systems on a cruising boat. saw how racers treat cruising boats. not pretty. they are good in their kind of boat-- dont allow them near mine. i learned the hard way.

GO SAILING.
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Old 14-07-2011, 16:46   #236
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

A good dinghy sailor will have far better first-time success with a large cruising boat than the typical cruiser will have first-time in a dinghy. And, yes, a good dinghy sailor will very likely be a racer too. I'm referring to sailing here, not repairing corroded electrical junk, diesels and clogged plumbing.

Racers, without any trouble, will keep the boat balanced, safe, and moving well in conditions that would confound the typical cruiser. As well as keep the boat light, trim, on her lines and seaworthy. The typical racer has been in many knock downs, overboards, groundings, etc. All around a very good preparation for cruising. Far better than any class.

But, yes, Zeehag, don't let anybody race your cruising boat. That's almost always a disaster.
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Old 14-07-2011, 17:04   #237
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

daddle--i found racers are specifically trained to take care of the pieces they were trained to take care of. a racing sailor in a cruising boat in a lightning storm goes home. the cruiser remains sailing and keeps boat in a safe condition in a wild sea and the systems running and functional. the racer is pitching the needed spares overboard.
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Old 14-07-2011, 17:24   #238
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Very true Jackdale, and a great way to see if you make the cut.
No racing teaches you specific things. Equally you can get pigeon holed into doing the same thing over and over. Racing does refine some skills it's not a way to learn sailing in the general sense. To learn sailing go cruising. To learn how to do things faster ( and break loads of gear) go racing.

I agree with Zeehaq here , cruisers learn to protect the equipment and get the boat to the destination irrespective. Racers learn to push everything to the limit and hence break things and retire. That's not an option for cruisers.

I've had several racers crew for me all had to be retrained to think cruising , ie protect the boat, slow it down and be sure the gear doesn't fail. Or course none of them can navigate or cook either.

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Old 14-07-2011, 17:50   #239
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

If a racer breaks the boat they almost always lose the race. It's seriously avoided. And, experience breaking boats is valuable in avoiding it the next time. Also, racers maintain their boats far far better than the typical cruiser. Compare the fleet of boats racing the TransPac Hawaii at this moment to the fleet of cruiser boats in any cruising anchorage, no comparison in preparation, seaworthiness or all around sailing skill.
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Old 14-07-2011, 18:04   #240
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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I agree with Zeehaq here
x2.

Some lessons are transferable from dingies and racing, others are not.
Some lessons will never be learnt on (most) dingies & racing boats.

(Nonetheless, most people benefit from multiple sources of learning.)
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