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Old 08-07-2011, 01:38   #211
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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It wasn't always that way. In the early days--.

My father was a mad keen diver and spear fisherman back in the 60s. The kind of bloke who usually dove solo to get fish, crays and abs for a bit of extra income so we could live well. You could really write one of those books about his exploits. I suppose I have been exposed to something a bit more admirable if not manly before all the commercialism crept in?

Likewise, I am again not criticizing courses. I just know that there are some where I could definitely feel much more secure about the syllabus, the teachers and the organizations motivations.
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Old 08-07-2011, 06:52   #212
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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I think.....


A big part of the sailing community are sailors who are independent, self sufficient types who go cruising to get away from red tape beaurocracy. It's our nature to want to work things out ourselves for the most part.
We resent the big brother mentality that is creeping in, where you can and can't do stuff based on some beaurocrat's idea of a controlled, structured method of controlling the herd.

The industry side of sailing has a vested interest in lobbying authorities to require formalised training. It's a commercial strategy for them. And raising safety as the reason gets beaurocracy on side every time.
So in that regard, the training industry is seen with a lot of skepticism.
Have your livlihood, but don't stuff things up for the rest of us.
.......

I see no real evidence that other then a small cadre of sailers that are independant types, most are just weekend warriors and they dont work things out for themselves. They are often woefully ignorant of basic rules, safety procedures etc.


As to the industry side of sailing having a vested interest, in lobbying for formal training. Certainly on this side of the pond that is not so. The RYA has actively fought against any attempt to impose compulsory competence training. The industry is not in favour if it as all that happens is that training desends to the basic competency cert and thats it ( think drivers tests, how many do advanced ones)

Hence the industry would prefer voluntary training, its removes a point of pressure, means that candidates enjoy themselves and do courses for their own sake.


Dave
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:11   #213
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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... Maybe those who cannot teach just b*tch about teachers.
Indeed.

A better Mencken quote:
The inferior mans reasons for hating knowledge are not hard to discern. He hates it because it is complex because it puts an unbearable burden upon his meager capacity for taking in ideas. Thus his search is always for short cuts. Their aim is to make the unintelligible simple, and even obvious.
~ H.L. Mencken
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Old 08-07-2011, 09:58   #214
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Personally, I think the ASA courses are great, but I had a good teacher who really knew hist stuff, despite being a young whipper snapper. I just got back from taking 101 - 104.

However, I know I got more out of them because I had sailed smaller boats in the past. The actual sailing part is easy, it's learning the equipment and handling on the larger boats that I needed. Plus, I got some good tips on a myriad of other subjects just from talking with a knowledgeable captain, such as radio procedure, clearing in, weather, chart plotters, engine maintenance, etc.

Sailing you can learn on your own easily enough, but all that other stuff, for me, is best learned during a course.
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Old 08-07-2011, 10:18   #215
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

MarkJ, you got it right in my mind... the 50' and 60's were my vintage years working on the west coast. Most of the folks are long dead but there were some awesome sailors in the bunch and they taught me a lot. I've nothing against sailing schools but there weren't many around in those days. The old Vancouver Vocational School ran a course back in the 60's which was required to achieve a Mates ticket for coastal inland waters in B.C. The material was 90% Rules of the Road, Navigation and Celestial Nav but I still remember the stuff we learned. All the 'hands on' training was aboard the commercial vessel you worked on. Once you had your sea time in and finished the course, you could drive pretty much anything under 500 tons.
The 100 ton USCG Masters license is much the same but varies a bit in the documented sea time and includes a lot more familiarity with electronic nav aids such as GPS, plotters, enhanced radar, etc. but you still need to demonstrate some old school nav competence.
It is a lot easier today with the miriad of technological assists but reliance on thse alone is a recipe for disaster at some point IMO.
I don't yearn for the 'good old days' but do wish I could live them again with what I know now... cheers, Capt Phil
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Old 08-07-2011, 10:54   #216
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

is not whether ye pass a corporate sponsored/encouraged class but HOW ye act IF you are out there WHEN it hits the fan..LOL>... tests on paper be damned-- they dont mean jack all. performance is the test.
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Old 08-07-2011, 11:20   #217
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

It is helpful to be along with an experienced hand when they deal with a nasty situation and learn how they handle (or mishandle) the situation. Some of the most profound learning experiences I've had come from being there when it hits the fan.
I've often measured my own actions against what 'Capt X' would have done... sometimes I measured up, sometimes I didn't but it gives one a lot of confidence when you can lead a crew and ship out of a mess that might have led to disaster if you hadn't acted correctly.
It 's my opinion that the prudent skipper would base his/her decision on past experience of what has worked and what hasn't. Very difficult to get that from a course or a book.
In the final analysis, would you rather be at sea with an older experienced hand with no courses behind him or with a highly schooled individual with little or no sea time?
Jackdale seems to have both attributes going for him... Capt Phil
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Old 08-07-2011, 19:18   #218
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Question Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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is not whether ye pass a corporate sponsored/encouraged class but HOW ye act IF you are out there WHEN it hits the fan..LOL>... tests on paper be damned-- they dont mean jack all. performance is the test.
Pretty much what I am saying with the comparison to scuba diving courses. If you don't know the basics and can't hold your head no peice of paper is going to help you when the colloquial **** hits the fan. With a modicum of commonsense you are just as well riding it out on the inspiration and past experiences drawn from classic sailing literature?
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:18   #219
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

[QUOTE=SurferShane;724797] With a modicum of commonsense you are just as well riding it out on the inspiration and past experiences drawn from classic sailing literature?[/QUOTE

Thr problem here is that the sailing , lifestyles and values have changed.

People are appalled to find that the 21st century has overtaken the dreams that were generated by reading of sailing experiences and adventures of the '60's and '70's are no more.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:35   #220
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

I started sailing 37 years ago by taking lessons on a Soling. I got the basics down well enough to get from point A to point B in something similar, but I also picked up some habits that don't transfer. I recently sailed a J-22, and realized that everything I picked up on the soling applied to the new boat, and had a revelation:
There are universal things that work on almost any sailing vessel, and there are significant differences as the boats increase in complexity and weight. And teaching sailing should capitolize on these differences. To that end, lessons should be taught on a range of boats, and the student and instructor should move back to the simpler boat to explore more complex tactics in a less threatening, more familiar situation.
This would take a lot more time, and might only be suited to an academic semester environment rather than a commercial school.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:44   #221
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Teaching is part science and art...like most things in life.

I've been an instructor much of my life on everything from pure academics to hands on shipboard helo landings. Just yesterday I taught someone to dock their boat in one of the trickiest marinas in South Jersey...(bad current)

Some people say they can learn from little hands on and others ONLY think they can learn from hands on.

The US MIlitary (many around the world but I can only speak for the US) takes kids and crams a shi*load of info and practical knowledge into them in a short amount of time. I teach the same way and it works..

Read...do...review...read....do...review and test...

If you think you learn only by school or only by hands on....you are learning at the slower rate. Many of the posts pretty much say the same thing. Learning is an ongoing thing and the source of knowledge HAS to come from several sources as no one person knows it all.

Yes an old timer may get someone through dingy sailing...but the actual part of sailing is only 10 percent or less of what it takes to be a competent cruiser.
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Old 09-07-2011, 10:33   #222
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Very astute observation, John A... CP
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Old 13-07-2011, 16:06   #223
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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OK, can I have a gripe here? Every time I see a post with someone wanting to begin sailing all I seem to see is advice on getting ASA training take lessons etc....

My feeling is get a sunfish and go for it then a bigger and bigger till ya happy... Read a book, trial and error or OPB to learn.


Have we really become a bunch of morons who can't just do it any more or am I just old and cranky??

Come on slaughter me or agree with me or what do you think.......
I'm with you, Capttman.
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Old 13-07-2011, 17:07   #224
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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OK, can I have a gripe here? Every time I see a post with someone wanting to begin sailing all I seem to see is advice on getting ASA training take lessons etc....

My feeling is get a sunfish and go for it then a bigger and bigger till ya happy..
If you REALLY want to to learn to sail; get on a race boat. That is a trial by fire. Those crews show little mercy.

I started on a Tartan 10 in Galveston Bay. No baby sailboats for me.

Racing improves the breed. - old Porshe ad.
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Old 13-07-2011, 17:24   #225
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Personally, I'm gonna teach myself, I don't want to take a course, not at the beginning at least.

I'm gonna buy a cheap boat, stay away from the other boats (and the shore) and learn by doing.

After a few weeks, I'll start thinking about lessons, but the first steps? No way I'm gonna let an instructor kill the joy with things that I won't understand/remember anyway.

Common sense and humility, the rest will come on time.

my 0.00002 cents

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