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Old 07-07-2011, 09:18   #166
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Wow all these opinions, good bad and indifferent. All I was trying to say is why does every one look for a piece of paper diploma or otherwise to prove one can do something... But now I'm more convinced than ever that when ya learn by doing you learn!
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Old 07-07-2011, 09:24   #167
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

i have SEEN first hand what comes out of asa clases an d have not the nerve to use these rejects as crew. they have known absolutely NOTHING about boat nor sailing. now, tell me these are not norm for asa classes...LOL..
i learned from a tallshipman. we were fortunate inour family to have had a shiping company in the family..complete with a kings point graduate who also was taught in navy on last tallship in use by navy to teach. no we didnt have formal classes but i defy anyone coming out of one to have the knowledge that nman gave us in a week of time spent in sailboat with him. aint gonna happen.
i find the classes not helpful for those knowing nothing-- they STILL know NOTHING after the alleged classes.
i still find that time on sea is better than time spent in class. nothing like being out there to have your knowledge base increased. wont happen in a classroom.same as nursing --
--my grandpoppa was friends of tesla and was involved in a project in which he utilized tesla's vast knowledge of ballistics. they were friends and PEERS. is not someone to teach basic electricity to, is what i am saying.
capttman--you are correct!
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Old 07-07-2011, 09:40   #168
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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i have SEEN first hand what comes out of asa clases an d have not the nerve to use these rejects as crew. they have known absolutely NOTHING about boat nor sailing. now, tell me these are not norm for asa classes...LOL..
i learned from a tallshipman. we were fortunate inour family to have had a shiping company in the family..complete with a kings point graduate who also was taught in navy on last tallship in use by navy to teach. no we didnt have formal classes but i defy anyone coming out of one to have the knowledge that nman gave us in a week of time spent in sailboat with him. aint gonna happen.
i find the classes not helpful for those knowing nothing-- they STILL know NOTHING after the alleged classes.
i still find that time on sea is better than time spent in class. nothing like being out there to have your knowledge base increased. wont happen in a classroom.same as nursing --
--my grandpoppa was friends of tesla and was involved in a project in which he utilized tesla's vast knowledge of ballistics. they were friends and PEERS. is not someone to teach basic electricity to, is what i am saying.
capttman--you are correct!

Zeehag, you are arguing different things.

Beginers courses like ASA 101, 103,104 ( which I did a long time ago to see comparisons between RYA Day skipper and ASA courses) does in my mind "Does, what it says on the tin" It provides the basics, and like all courses and candidates , some come out well and others barely scape a pass.

Comments about tall ships and teh navy miss the point, lots of people in these modern days do NOT have access to experienced "sea dogs" ( as opposed to people who think they are sea dogs). Hence the only way these poeple can gain some specialised knowledge is by training, whether thats a book or a course it matters not. Some people can self train, others cannot, I once sailed with an extremely "knowledable" sailor, most of it learned from books, it wasnt a pleasant sight. Its interesting to note that the Tallships have had to organise sail training courses for permenent crew as the experience was lost with old tall ships crew dieing.

As to Tesla and sending him on a course. I dont beleive anyone is suggesting that experienced sailors should do beginners courses. But I would suggest that many experienced sailors should do immediate or advanced courses and the subsequent exams. what I do find is its generally fear that prevents them.


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But now I'm more convinced than ever that when ya learn by doing you learn!
capttman, why do you come to that conclusion only.

Dave
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Old 07-07-2011, 09:47   #169
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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A lot of our skills can atrophy from lack of use, especially stuff like the more esoteric lights shapes and sounds. This is why professional mariners take frequent exams in the IRPCS. An occassional lesson can help to polish these skills, and we are never too old to learn new skills.

I now have flash cards for all those difficult to remember stuff, and this helps to keep the memory working. I guess my first proper sailing course was in 1969. My latest was 2 years ago.

Note I wrote latest, as I dont expect it will be the last!
Yep - My celestial nav skills need huge work. I took the course 20 years ago, but a lot went away. I am now working at bringing it back.

I also have flash cards. I have to write my CYA Advanced exams and a Rule of the Road exam each time I do a formal re-cert. The pass mark is 90%.

The best way to learn something is to teach it; that has really helped me.
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Old 07-07-2011, 09:53   #170
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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In my experience the people often criticising formal training are too afraid to do one of them anyway. Often too worried they would fail. ( the I don't need a Yachtmaster. Etc. Deep down they don't beleive they'd pass )
Dave
It seems to me in this thread that the major proponents of courses are people who make their living teaching courses. I'd rather sail with someone who has experience and who has 'been there' than some blue light belt and braces instructor, no matter how many teaching qualifications he has. Give me the man that's made the mistakes and learned from them any time.

As H.L. Melken famously said "Those who can - do. Those who can't - teach".
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Old 07-07-2011, 09:55   #171
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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Zeehag, you are arguing different things.

Beginers courses like ASA 101, 103,104 ( which I did a long time ago to see comparisons between RYA Day skipper and ASA courses) does in my mind "Does, what it says on the tin" It provides the basics, and like all courses and candidates , some come out well and others barely scape a pass.

Comments about tall ships and teh navy miss the point, lots of people in these modern days do NOT have access to experienced "sea dogs" ( as opposed to people who think they are sea dogs). Hence the only way these poeple can gain some specialised knowledge is by training, whether thats a book or a course it matters not. Some people can self train, others cannot, I once sailed with an extremely "knowledable" sailor, most of it learned from books, it wasnt a pleasant sight. Its interesting to note that the Tallships have had to organise sail training courses for permenent crew as the experience was lost with old tall ships crew dieing.

As to Tesla and sending him on a course. I dont beleive anyone is suggesting that experienced sailors should do beginners courses. But I would suggest that many experienced sailors should do immediate or advanced courses and the subsequent exams. what I do find is its generally fear that prevents them.




capttman, why do you come to that conclusion only.

Dave

I just think u retain what you learned when you experience it.. I think I use 25% of my education today, however I would not have had the opportunity to do what I have done if not for my degrees.. professor of economics.
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Old 07-07-2011, 10:12   #172
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Naynaynay.

I learned sailing by sailing. I learned about sailing by reading about sailing.

These are two things.

b.
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Old 07-07-2011, 10:13   #173
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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It seems to me in this thread that the major proponents of courses are people who make their living teaching courses. I'd rather sail with someone who has experience and who has 'been there' than some blue light belt and braces instructor, no matter how many teaching qualifications he has. Give me the man that's made the mistakes and learned from them any time.

As H.L. Melken famously said "Those who can - do. Those who can't - teach".
Sorry, but I have always taken offense to that statement. I was a public school teacher and administrator for 33 years.

As a cruiser and sailing instructor I have over 30,000 miles, of which 7,000 are bluewater. That does not include over a dozen trips around Vancouver Island, about half of which is offshore, but does include Turkey, BVIs , The Bahamas, The Leewards and the PNW. I have also crewed on race boats (actually that is where I got started.)

As an instructor-evaluator, I tell prospective instructors that they have to have had a lot of experience and made a lot of mistakes before they can impart their knowledge and skills to others.

In another forum, we ran some quizzes to test each other's knowledge, who is game for that here?
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Old 07-07-2011, 10:33   #174
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

I started by reading (a lot), then took ASA lessons, then read some more while slowly sailing in different conditions.

I continue to read and my hope is that I never experience even close to half of the things I've read about (most are bad things). But will be gald I read about them if they ever do happen.
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Old 07-07-2011, 10:50   #175
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

I had never seen the ocean until I was 18! I was 44 years old before I ventured on my first sailboat.
I used sailing instruction as a means to learn what the heck a sailboat was and to be eligible to rent different boats within the sailing club. I rented several types of sailboats to help figure out what type of boat I wanted to purchase.

I sailed locally for 12 years to gain the experience to cruise for 10 years.

I think the main problem with sailing instruction vs experience only, is that both groups think they know everything related to sailing and the other dosen't.

What counts is how well you apply that knowledge. Which is an individual thing.
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Old 07-07-2011, 11:01   #176
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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It seems to me in this thread that the major proponents of courses are people who make their living teaching courses. I'd rather sail with someone who has experience and who has 'been there' than some blue light belt and braces instructor, no matter how many teaching qualifications he has. Give me the man that's made the mistakes and learned from them any time.
Well , I take exception to that that. The fact is I have sailed with many very experienced people , who were absolutly terrible teachers. in no way could they get accross their knowledge in a meaningful way. Its a rare person that has accumalated skills and has an ability to transfer that knowledge well.

as to to "blue light belt and braces", teh vast majority of instructors are dedicated sailors, with significant experience and many many thousands of miles at sea, They are one of most skilled groups of sailers you will meet as they have attempted to make a livelihood out of a passion. Hence your instructor is likely to be one of the most "hands on" sailors you'll ever meet.

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I think the main problem with sailing instruction vs experience only, is that both groups think they know everything related to sailing and the other dosen't.
NO nobody, ever suggests that a raw candidate coming out of a beginners course knows "everything" or "anything" about sailing. However the instructor on a properly trained instruction scheme is a very experienced person indeed, Look up the requirements for RYA Yachtmaster Instructors. ( and thats teh minium, and a 60% failure rate).

Courses combined with experience are one of teh best ways to acquire such knowledge. Each on their own has limitations.

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Old 07-07-2011, 11:02   #177
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Did someone mention lights??????

Only a crackpot could learn them all as a recreational sailor.

What about this spicey 'lil number:


I've seen this one in Asia but the lights looked more like


So flipcards (etc) is probably a better way to go. Dump the text book parot study and have a ready reference.

By the way, are you interested to know what the above splatter of lights mean?
(Worse) do you know what they mean? LOL
Vessel Restricted in Her Ability To Maneuver conducting underwater operations where an obstruction exists


My favorite was seeing a strange, vague, light ahead and when very close found out it was the guard on a barge watching TV whilst being towed! Couldnt see the tug!
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Old 07-07-2011, 12:00   #178
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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By the way, are you interested to know what the above splatter of lights mean?
(Worse) do you know what they mean? LOL
Vessel Restricted in Her Ability To Maneuver conducting underwater operations where an obstruction exists
And safe to pass on its port side. The vessel is underway and may be over 50 meters in length

Haven't seen one in the dark, but one was operating in Jolly Harbor when I was there many years ago.
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Old 07-07-2011, 12:47   #179
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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Is that Santa's sled?
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Old 07-07-2011, 13:26   #180
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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I think the main problem with sailing instruction vs experience only, is that both groups think they know everything related to sailing and the other dosen't.
There is a model that I use to discuss some stages stages of learning. It is based on competence and consciousness.


“You don’t know what you don’t know”
-Unconscious Incompetence

“You know what you don’t know”
-Conscious Incompetence

“You know what you know”
-Conscious Competence
“You don’t know what you know”
-Unconscious Competence


Many highly experienced sailors are at the last level. Sailing is natural to them and easy; so easy they cannot explain it to others.

For some time I wondered where instructors should be. Then I come across the idea of Reflective Competence which is one step above Unconsciousness Competence. Reflective competence allows one to break knowledge into understandable packages that build on previous learnings; and allows one to break skills into steps that can be taught to a newbie.

When everything is going to sh*t, and instructor has to be able to be both Unconsciously Competent and Reflectively Competent at the same time.
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