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Old 06-07-2011, 10:00   #151
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

There are quite a fraternity of us 'grumpy old salts' who left San Diego because of the cost of living, ill health and all the rules that they have down there. Most of us do not have a teaching certification but have been at sea most of our lives and many have at least 100K nautical miles under our feet. Sorry I couldn't have met Zee when I lived down there... she could have taught me something about living under bridges! (just kiddin')... cheers, Capt Phil
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Old 06-07-2011, 10:35   #152
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

some can do it ..some cant..its that simple...taught myself to hang glide and went on to become mildly succsesful in the business,(if I could only learn to spell) also taught myself how to fab. light aircraft and am now one of very few still in bussiness fabing. and selling and providing certified flight instruction...plan on moving assembly into the foreward cabin on my boat and sailing to my wealthy customers as with this economy they seem to have all gone cruising.go figure, every sailer needs a motorized paraglider and you can solo in as little as 3 days (if you take the lessons..ha .ha.)DVC
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Old 06-07-2011, 13:17   #153
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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There are quite a fraternity of us 'grumpy old salts' who left San Diego because of the cost of living, ill health and all the rules that they have down there. Most of us do not have a teaching certification but have been at sea most of our lives and many have at least 100K nautical miles under our feet. Sorry I couldn't have met Zee when I lived down there... she could have taught me something about living under bridges! (just kiddin')... cheers, Capt Phil
Those are the kind of guys I'm looking for the ones with the voodoo knowledge and have been there and experienced things.

I have been contacted by someone in the LA area and he may be just what I'm looking for if we can connect with schedules.
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Old 06-07-2011, 13:26   #154
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Most people who have "been there and done that" seldom advertise their skills as they acknowledge, to themselves, how much they still don't know.

What worked for me may not work for you.
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Old 06-07-2011, 13:42   #155
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

Capttman is right on! Going to sailing school is like having the Coast Guard Aux inspect a good blue water cruising boat!
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Old 07-07-2011, 06:32   #156
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Originally Posted by Ironhorse74
I for one am glad that the Wright brothers didn't have to go to pilots school before learning to fly.

Go out and do it
Not withstanding the 1000s of airmen and women who died perfecting the product of course.


This training argument misses the point. Formalised training, combined with group practice ( crewing etc) and individual experience is the best way. The same sort of result can be achieved by only doing one or two of three. I've met trainees with loads of certs but little real knowledge equally I've met people sailing for years who can't navigate properly.


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Old 07-07-2011, 06:37   #157
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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...
Not saying I don’t want to do a celestial navigation and maybe a boatbuilding course, however, I think I would find learning everything this way claustrophobic if not just plain irritating. For me scuba diving is another ocean based pastime that is complicated by a million and one courses. The thing that disturbs me about some of the people who take this commercial road is that many don’t even have basic snorkeling and swimming skills, yet they can obtain advanced certificates. I am sure similar happens in sailing?
I see it that way as well. It's not that these course are worthless, they are certainly not; it's just that they have every reason to convince you to keep taking more courses.
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Old 07-07-2011, 06:45   #158
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I see it that way as well. It's not that these course are worthless, they are certainly not; it's just that they have every reason to convince you to keep taking more courses.
I have never experienced any pressure to take " more " courses. In fact quite the opposite. Many course providers at various stages would be very specific and advise their clients to gain some experience before proceeding to higher level courses. In the case of the RYA this in fact is mandatory.


In my experience the people often criticising formal training are too afraid to do one of them anyway. Often too worried they would fail. ( the I don't need a Yachtmaster. Etc. Deep down they don't beleive they'd pass )
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Old 07-07-2011, 06:53   #159
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I am a huge fan of reading then try. It is an invaluable way to learn how things work and why. I am currently re-rigging a Gaff sail by the same method.

When I started out in sailing I did very well at reading then sailing, but eventually did an RYA course for my own peace of mind, I found I learned better by books and trying.
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Old 07-07-2011, 07:09   #160
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

I was very satisfied with the courses I took and had/have no inclination to pursue it any further. They accomplished everything I wanted. I took ASA classes AFTER teaching myself to sail via books/internet and spending a year sailing a dinghy on local lakes. The ASA classes were very expensive and I wouldn't have taken them except that I was offered them in trade for some work. It worked out really well and I learned more in 5 days than I could ever have learned in 5 years of reading books. Actually, I'd say I learned more the first day out (in 35+kt winds) than I ever did fumbling around on my little dinghy.

I wouldn't trade the dinghy experience for anything, but I'd say the lessons were worth every penny.

It might just be the way everything worked out though, I highly doubt I would have learned as much if I took the lessons a few years earlier, before all the reading and dinghy... Most of the other people in the class with me were absolutely clueless. It seemed like they were just 'testing the waters' with sailing, and not really interested in learning anything. Or possibly it was that most of what the instructors were saying went right over their head. The two guys I took 104 with both failed the test and had to re-take it.... I'd say they wasted a lot of money, and I doubt they will ever become cruisers. But then again, I don't think that's what they were going for to begin with. So it all depends on the person and how they are pursuing it. I'd say it's highly beneficial to teach yourself as much as you can, and then when you hit a wall (because you will) get some real hands-on guidance. The certificate itself is useless, but having a knowledgeable instructor and 'extensive' hands on training, is priceless.

I'd also say I would have been very disappointed if I had only taken ASA 101-102. Spending the entire week and doing 101-104 was important to me. I wanted to get the most time on the water as possible and I think the extra 3 or 4 days made all the difference in the world.
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Old 07-07-2011, 07:24   #161
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

some people need the confidence they get fron a lesson or two. I learned by doing. I bought DVDs and books, that I refer to on a regular basis, but that's just me, Mr. gunghoe.
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Old 07-07-2011, 07:59   #162
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I have never experienced any pressure to take " more " courses. In fact quite the opposite. Many course providers at various stages would be very specific and advise their clients to gain some experience before proceeding to higher level courses. In the case of the RYA this in fact is mandatory.


In my experience the people often criticising formal training are too afraid to do one of them anyway. Often too worried they would fail. ( the I don't need a Yachtmaster. Etc. Deep down they don't beleive they'd pass )
Dave
That was my experience as well. After I took Canadian Yachting Association Basic Cruising and Coastal Navigation, I was all keen to do more advanced courses. My instructor told me to go sailing. I took my next course 7 years later.

CYA and ISPA have skipper time prerequisites, although some students seem to talk their way into courses when they lack that experience. This is not good for the students, other students or the instructor.
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Old 07-07-2011, 08:06   #163
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

cpt phil-- where are ye now?? i loved living under that dambridge so much i made the formosa leave to come here to mzzatlan... come on down for a visit....is hot here with water too..LOL......and very affordable....until nov , when thy raise the rent and i leave.....

i havent taken any courses because i see what comes out of them..LOl sorry, isnt because of potential for failure--i donot see anything positive in them or having allegedly graduated from them.....is like sending tesla to school for electrical studies. rofl.
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Old 07-07-2011, 08:52   #164
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

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i havent taken any courses because i see what comes out of them..LOl sorry, isnt because of potential for failure--i donot see anything positive in them or having allegedly graduated from them.....is like sending tesla to school for electrical studies. rofl.
well firstly Tesla studied electrical engineering at the Austrian Polytechnic in Graz, so he did a "course".

I think its a very cynical viewpoint that the output of sailing courses arnt positive. As a sailing instructor I have to disagree.

There are three distinct types of courses. Begineers courses are aimed at people, who may be unsure as to wheter they like the sport or not, often taken by time limited people. They are aimed at giving people the basics. What comes out is definitely not a "sailor", nor does anyone beleive it to be. Some of these courses are theory only etc. ( aka navigation classes).

Immediate courses are usually taken by people who know the basics of sailing and in fact are often suprising competent sailors. They have many reasons to do such courses, they want a competence cert for chartering , or their insurance might be lower. Also many realised that their experience is lacking in one area or another. They might not have a good grasp of tidal calculations, or chart work or the finer points of sail trim. While many people can pick this up from books , many cannot and prefer the taught method.

Advanced courses are typically done by the dedicated. These are typically the like of Yachtmaster Coastal or Offshore or Ocean, or the many equivalents. People doing these are in the main, experienced sailers with significant command experience. They want to do these courses/exams to (a) validate their experience, (b) they want a commercial career or want to become say instructors ( my reasoning).


Its wrong to denigrate formalised training, remember in the past, sail training was primarily done by the apprentice method. Boys went to sea and spent the majority of their middle and later teenage years learning the ropes. They then in a lot of cases also had to sit exams. They certainly didnt learn it by spending 20 years sailing in and out of teh same creek.!

today "old salts" are nothing of the kind, most leisure "salts" will do less mileage in their lifetime then commercial sailors did in a week. Hence formal training has to some extent replaced that gap.

remember, theres no fool like an old fool.

Dave
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Old 07-07-2011, 09:12   #165
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Re: What Ever Happened to Learn by Doing ? Read a Book and Go for it !

A lot of our skills can atrophy from lack of use, especially stuff like the more esoteric lights shapes and sounds. This is why professional mariners take frequent exams in the IRPCS. An occassional lesson can help to polish these skills, and we are never too old to learn new skills.

I now have flash cards for all those difficult to remember stuff, and this helps to keep the memory working. I guess my first proper sailing course was in 1969. My latest was 2 years ago.

Note I wrote latest, as I dont expect it will be the last!
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