Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 30-09-2011, 06:30   #61
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Tellie's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hollywood, Fl.
Boat: FP Athena 38' Poerava
Posts: 3,046
Re: Wasp Spray - The Almost Perfect Solution

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
The case wasn't as simple as you suggest.
Tony Martin was convicted of murder, which was reduced to manslaughter on appeal; and his life sentence reduced to 5 years. He was released after serving three years.
The prosecution theory had Martin lying in wait, to ambush the two burglars.

Interesting point. We all know laws vary from country to country. I read many times here from all sorts of posters about the consequences of either killing or seriously maiming an intruder in another country. Are there any real stories of people who have rightfully defended themselves aboard and found themselves locked up unfairly because the victims brother was the local cop or the many other reasons people here elude to? Or are these stories perhaps just as fanciful as a quad fifty mounted on the bow.
Tellie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2011, 06:44   #62
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,326
Re: Wasp Spray - The Almost Perfect Solution

Nothing to do with wasp spray, but................I wonder if having a gun makes you a lot more prone thinking it is OK to shoot someone? Almost like having a liferaft makes you more prone to abandon ship.

And I'm not suggesting it is wrong to protect or defend yourself, just maybe the method.
__________________

__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2011, 06:53   #63
Registered User
 
denverd0n's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 3,953
Images: 6
Re: Wasp Spray - The Almost Perfect Solution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
I wonder if having a gun makes you a lot more prone thinking it is OK to shoot someone?
I think you've got it backwards. You don't procure a gun for self-defense if you don't ALREADY believe that it is okay to use lethal force (shooting someone) in defense of your own life and/or property. So, it's not that having a gun makes you think it's okay, it's that thinking it is okay makes you get a gun.

I will leave all debates as to whether or not it is ACTUALLY okay to use lethal force in your defense to those who cannot resist beating a dead horse.
__________________
denverd0n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2011, 06:53   #64
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,592
Images: 240
Re: Wasp Spray - The Almost Perfect Solution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
... I wonder if having a gun makes you a lot more prone thinking it is OK to shoot someone? Almost like having a liferaft makes you more prone to abandon ship.
And I'm not suggesting it is wrong to protect or defend yourself, just maybe the method.
Perhaps, according to the law of the instrument (Maslow's Hammer), which describes an over-reliance on a familiar tool.
As Abraham Maslow said: "It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail."
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2011, 06:55   #65
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 74
Re: Wasp Spray - The Almost Perfect Solution

I didn't want to get away from the Wasp Spray thread by entering into detail. Very rarely is anything simple but that was how I was trying to keep it. Anyway how's this. English law permits one person to kill another in self defence only if the person defending him or herself uses no more than "reasonable force"; it is the responsibility of the jury to determine whether or not an unreasonable amount of force was used.The jury at the trial were told that they had the option of returning a verdict of manslaughter rather than murder, if they thought that Martin "did not intend to kill or cause serious bodily harm". However, the jurors found Martin guilty of murder by a 10 to 2 majority.
He was sentenced to life in prison, the mandatory sentence for murder under English law. Nick Makin, Martin's solicitor, said: "It is appalling that the family of a burglar who has a criminal record for burglary and assault should attempt to claim any damages of criminal injury when he was shot while burgling the dwelling of an innocent person... It is also appalling that they may get legal aid while his victim is in prison and patently unable to work and equally cannot get legal aid... There is something wrong and perverse with our legal system that it permits this.

An appeal was considered in October 2001 by three senior judges headed by Lord Woolf, LCJ. Submissions by the defence that Martin had fired in his own defence were rejected by the appeal court. On this occasion the defence also submitted evidence that Martin suffered paranoid personality disorder specifically directed at anyone intruding into his home. This submission was accepted by the Court of Appeal and, on the grounds of diminished responsibility, Martin's murder conviction was replaced by manslaughter carrying a five year sentence, and his ten year sentence for wounding one of the burglars Fearon was reduced to three years. These sentences were to run concurrently.

Martin was imprisoned in Highpoint Prison, Suffolk. When he became eligible for parole and early release in January 2003, the Parole Board rejected his application without stating a reason.The chairman of the parole board, Sir David Hatch, in an interview with The Times described Martin as "a very dangerous man" who may still believe his action had been right.
Martin challenged the decision in the High Court, where the parole board's decision was upheld. Probation officers on Martin's cases said there was an "unacceptable risk" that Martin might again react with excessive force if other would-be burglars intruded on his Norfolk farm.On 28 July 2003, Martin was released after serving three years of his five-year sentence,the maximum period for which he could be held following good behaviour.

Compensation claim

During 2003, Fearon applied for, and received, an estimated 5,000 of legal aid to sue Martin for loss of earnings due to the injuries he had sustained. However, the case was thrown into doubt when photographs were published in The Sun, showing him "cycling and climbing with little apparent difficulty" suggesting that Fearon's injuries were not as serious as had been claimed. While the case was pending, Fearon was recalled to jail after being charged with the theft of a vehicle while on probation on a conviction for dealing heroin. Fearon later dropped the case when Martin agreed to drop a counter-claim. Tens of thousands of pounds of public money had been spent on the case.
__________________
Islander1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2011, 14:29   #66
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: The Jon boat still, plus a 2007 SeaCat.
Posts: 6,894
Images: 4
Re: Wasp Spray - The Almost Perfect Solution

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
The case wasn't as simple as you suggest.
Tony Martin was convicted of murder, which was reduced to manslaughter on appeal; and his life sentence reduced to 5 years. He was released after serving three years.
The prosecution theory had Martin lying in wait, to ambush the two burglars.
Three years is too long.

Set in ambush - so what. Police set up ambushes all the time. The new word is sting I guess.
__________________
Who knows what is next.
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2011, 14:41   #67
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,777
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Wasp Spray - The Almost Perfect Solution

sting, entrapment--same same.
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2011, 15:09   #68
Wayfaring Mariner
 
captain58sailin's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Homer, AK is my home port
Boat: Skookum 53'
Posts: 4,045
Images: 5
Re: Wasp Spray - The Almost Perfect Solution

Doesn't change the fact that if those men had not been on Martin's property in the first place no harm would have come to them. I'm sorry, but those men had no business being on his property in the first place. I don't understand when it became okay to do this.
__________________
" Wisdom; is your reward for surviving your mistakes"
captain58sailin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2011, 15:20   #69
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,326
Re: Wasp Spray - The Almost Perfect Solution

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
Doesn't change the fact that if those men had not been on Martin's property in the first place no harm would have come to them. I'm sorry, but those men had no business being on his property in the first place. I don't understand when it became okay to do this.

we're off wasp spray now

were the men on the property, or in Martin's house? big difference between the 2 in my mind
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2011, 15:44   #70
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,592
Images: 240
Re: Wasp Spray - The Almost Perfect Solution

They were IN the house; but (in most jurisdictions) breaking & entering doesn’t carry a death sentence. Were Martin in fear of his person, he would probably have been justified in shooting (perhaps, even with an illegal weapon). Apparently, the Jury, and subsequent appeal Judges, didn’t so find.
In which case, wasp/pepper spray may have been a more proportional response.
I didn't hear the evidence, and cannot, therefor, judge.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2011, 15:56   #71
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,326
Re: Wasp Spray - The Almost Perfect Solution

I'll accept that. It is a pretty long established ruling that you can not ambush, set booby traps, shot them, etc in your house to catch people who break in.

Except in immediate defense of your person.

So for boating, if you carry a gun and shoot the people breaking into your boat, they better have a weapon that you can say they were threating you with. And a knife from 5 feet away isn't going to cut it if you just shot them with a shotgun etc.

Now I've gone down the gun hole and the thread is going to be closed. Sorry!
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2011, 16:10   #72
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: The Jon boat still, plus a 2007 SeaCat.
Posts: 6,894
Images: 4
Re: Wasp Spray - The Almost Perfect Solution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
I'll accept that. It is a pretty long established ruling that you can not ambush, set booby traps, shot them, etc in your house to catch people who break in.

Except in immediate defense of your person.

So for boating, if you carry a gun and shoot the people breaking into your boat, they better have a weapon that you can say they were threating you with. And a knife from 5 feet away isn't going to cut it if you just shot them with a shotgun etc.

Now I've gone down the gun hole and the thread is going to be closed. Sorry!
Don't be.

Wasp spray is stupid.

FYI - I have a son who has a friend that is training in the Sheriffs Office in another FL county. Part of this training includes being pepper sprayed, having to fight their way back to their cruiser (not our kind -their four wheeled kind ), get another weapon, call for help and then get back after the "bad guy".

Next week they get tazered.

So even pepper spray isn't so good for someone determined.

Don't know about bear spray.

Ok to close the thread now.

Thanks.
__________________
Who knows what is next.
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-09-2011, 17:02   #73
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Tellie's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hollywood, Fl.
Boat: FP Athena 38' Poerava
Posts: 3,046
Re: Wasp Spray - The Almost Perfect Solution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
Three years is too long.

Set in ambush - so what. Police set up ambushes all the time. The new word is sting I guess.

Agreed. The English way of thinking, sheesh. Maybe they're still smarting all these years after the Minute Men gave them a Jolly good education in ambushes. So back to wasp spray.....
Tellie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2011, 02:47   #74
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 74
Re: Wasp Spray - The Almost Perfect Solution

I'm missing something here; I fail to see what a dig at the English "Minute Men" (many of whom were mainly descended from "English stock") has to do with this thread?.
I'm off to buy some Sharp Stainless Steel Nails (Ref my interaction with Bruce 626) a few cans of hair Spray, a loud audible alarm of a Grizzly in Heat and a Bright Adjustable Motion Sensor Flood light.
__________________
Islander1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2011, 03:29   #75
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Philippines
Boat: custom 42' catamaran
Posts: 269
Re: Wasp Spray - The Almost Perfect Solution

Don Lucas opined "And a knife from 5 feet away isn't going to cut it if you just shot them with a shotgun etc." ==> I fear that belief in this seriously mistaken opinion can get someone seriously injured and/or killed. A person only five feet from you with a knife is well within potentially lethal range - a single step and a thrust could imbed a large knife in your chest, and quicker than you might imagine - especially under low light conditions where you might miss the start of the movement. I believe the literature recognizes a somewhat longer distance of around seven yards/meters is required to be able to stop someone from closing to contact.

A review of the literature might provide a current distance that LEO training manuals might cite. If one doesn't want to rely on a manual meant for well trained and equipped law enforcement officers, get a rubber knife and an airsoft pistol and experiment for yourself. Be sure to use goggles - and you can get darkened goggles to simulate low light conditions. It is my belief that you will find that the person wielding the knife is not as helpless as you might think from watching cinematic encounters (which is the 'training' that most people have).

Note that the person with the airsoft gun knows they are not using deadly force and will likely be less inclined to hesitate in pulling the trigger as might a person wielding a real firearm in a deadly situation.
__________________

__________________
Bruce626 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Separate Fridge and Freezer - Thoughts ? SV Demeter Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 22 14-07-2012 05:31
Xantrex Battery Charger Overheating - Frigoboat Fridge Sailormannn Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 188 16-01-2012 08:26
Killed Batteries ? Dockhead Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 31 27-08-2011 05:14
Protection from Pirates: The Almost-Perfect Solution Panamajames Monohull Sailboats 121 23-07-2011 01:25
Lost while the wife slept ozskipper General Sailing Forum 92 28-06-2011 21:31



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:41.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.