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Old 18-10-2015, 19:27   #136
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Re: U.S. Coast Guard boarding experience (not typical i dont think)

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
I shudder to ask AVB, but is Canada one of the nations that has handed such authority to the USCG? I expect I know the answer
Good news, Canada is not one of the countries with an agreement like this. Can you imagine a USCG vessel coming into Canadian waters and arresting people for having herbal peanut butter cookies in their fridge? Half the boaters in Canada would be languishing in US prisons.

However, there is a program in place called the "shiprider program" that's aimed at preventing smuggling. As far as I know it only applies to a section of the St Lawrence (centered around Cornwall) and the BC/Washington Boarder. The agreement allows RCMP officers to ride USCG ships and USCG officers to ride RCMP/CCG vessels.

The idea is if the smuggler tries to end a pursuit by criss crossing international boundaries, the vessel, with its bi--national law enforcement team can arrest on either side of the boarder.

Under this program though, it will be an RCMP officer arresting you in Canadian Waters and it will be Canadian laws and (comparatively very short) Canadian prison terms you'll receive- but the vessel may be an American Vessel with some American crew on board.

I'm strongly in favor of both civil liberties and Canadian soverenty, but I actually think the Ship Rider program is a logical and reasonable way of handling transborder pursuits, I see very little wrong with the programs intent.

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Old 18-10-2015, 19:59   #137
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Re: U.S. Coast Guard boarding experience (not typical i dont think)

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Thanks FV, that's what I thought. From similar discussions I've learned that our American friends can be arbitrarily stopped and searched on the water; no probable cause is required. Apparently their 4th amendment rights don't apply on the water, or there is some sort of CG exception ... I dunno. Anyway, it's good to see Canadian authorities still have to have at least a minimal pretext to stop and search its citizens.

Yes ... Canadians, VOTE!
Canuck pleasure craft can be boarded anytime, anywhere in Cdn waters under the guise of a Department of Communications Radio installation and operations check.They will have the appropriate peace officer(s) with them. Rarely exercised. Not sure if any other loop holes for the Cdn Feds.
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Old 18-10-2015, 20:56   #138
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Re: U.S. Coast Guard boarding experience (not typical i dont think)

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Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos View Post
I
Pretty simple with the USCG , if you give respect you get respect. Quite different with clowns at the fWC...

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Don't know about that. They berthed one of their patrol boats two berths down from mine this past winter/spring. I asked them to do a courtesy inspection on my boat (it passed), and spent some time talking to them about their practices. It wasn't a whole bunch different from the USCG, which they actually have a secondment agreement with, and why you will see them well out of territorial waters.

Keep your toilet working per regulations and get a fishing license when needed, and your pretty well OK.
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Old 18-10-2015, 21:03   #139
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Re: U.S. Coast Guard boarding experience (not typical i dont think)

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
I shudder to ask AVB, but is Canada one of the nations that has handed such authority to the USCG? I expect I know the answer
Canada and the US pretty well work hand in hand.

Since June 30 of last year, the moment you enter one country, the other one is informed you have left and vice versa. Something about the North American Security Perimeter. I know they are working on a framework of "hot pursuit" which would allow law enforcement officials from one country to enter the other and perform arrests. I think they have defined hot pursuit quite narrowly, however, the negotiations have stalled as they can not define the issue of liability, especially if firearms are used.

It works both ways though. Canada also has authority over US boats, just as the US has over the Canadian ones. Here are the details on how that is done:

Canada-U.S. Shiprider - Royal Canadian Mounted Police
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Old 18-10-2015, 21:07   #140
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Re: U.S. Coast Guard boarding experience (not typical i dont think)

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Canada and the US pretty well work hand in hand.

Since June 30 of last year, the moment you enter one country, the other one is informed you have left and vice versa. Something about the North American Security Perimeter. I know they are working on a framework of "hot pursuit" which would allow law enforcement officials from one country to enter the other and perform arrests. I think they have defined hot pursuit quite narrowly, however, the negotiations have stalled as they can not define the issue of liability, especially if firearms are used.

It works both ways though. Canada also has authority over US boats, just as the US has over the Canadian ones. Here are the details on how that is done:

Canada-U.S. Shiprider - Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Isn't Canada a US state? Why do you need these hot pursuit agreements?
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Old 18-10-2015, 21:15   #141
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Re: U.S. Coast Guard boarding experience (not typical i dont think)

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Good news, Canada is not one of the countries with an agreement like this. Can you imagine a USCG vessel coming into Canadian waters and arresting people for having herbal peanut butter cookies in their fridge? Half the boaters in Canada would be languishing in US prisons.

However, there is a program in place called the "shiprider program" that's aimed at preventing smuggling. As far as I know it only applies to a section of the St Lawrence (centered around Cornwall) and the BC/Washington Boarder. The agreement allows RCMP officers to ride USCG ships and USCG officers to ride RCMP/CCG vessels.

The idea is if the smuggler tries to end a pursuit by criss crossing international boundaries, the vessel, with its bi--national law enforcement team can arrest on either side of the boarder.

Under this program though, it will be an RCMP officer arresting you in Canadian Waters and it will be Canadian laws and (comparatively very short) Canadian prison terms you'll receive- but the vessel may be an American Vessel with some American crew on board.

I'm strongly in favor of both civil liberties and Canadian soverenty, but I actually think the Ship Rider program is a logical and reasonable way of handling transborder pursuits, I see very little wrong with the programs intent.

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Integrated Cross-Border Maritime Law Enforcement Operations (Canada-U.S. Shiprider) is alive and well in the Great Lakes.

Cheers

Bob
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Old 18-10-2015, 21:16   #142
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Re: U.S. Coast Guard boarding experience (not typical i dont think)

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Isn't Canada a US state? Why do you need these hot pursuit agreements?
Naaa.... we see the States as our southern provinces. Sort of like Aussies view New Zealand. Or maybe vice versa. It's a love/hate relationship.
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Old 18-10-2015, 21:23   #143
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Re: U.S. Coast Guard boarding experience (not typical i dont think)

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Naaa.... we see the States as our southern provinces. Sort of like Aussies view New Zealand. Or maybe vice versa. It's a love/hate relationship.

yeah, got ya.. of late we have been sending the naughty kiwis back and there like, 'hey ya can't do that, we're Aussies too'.
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Old 19-10-2015, 05:15   #144
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Re: U.S. Coast Guard boarding experience (not typical i dont think)

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Integrated Cross-Border Maritime Law Enforcement Operations (Canada-U.S. Shiprider) is alive and well in the Great Lakes.

Cheers

Bob
Yes it could be, I admit, my info is out of date, I haven't been a member if MSET in about 8 years, so I'm working from memory, and much has changed in maritime security since then.

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Old 19-10-2015, 10:15   #145
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Re: U.S. Coast Guard boarding experience (not typical i dont think)

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With regards to post 62; My boat is a house and is declared so, not by me, but by the US government. The US Internal Revenue Service states that any recreational vessel with sleeping quarters toilet and shower facilities, and cooking facilities is a house. It's a little inconsistent that one agency says it's a house and another agency does recognize that as a fact.

I agree current case law does allow the USCG to board private recreational vessels without cause. That does not mean I have to agree with that case law. I think the reason the second amendment is so well defended is that there are lots of gun owners and a well funded lobbying group. Face it, there are just not that many people living on boats and we don't have enough money to fund a lobbying group. Since we have the best government that money can buy and we have no money, nothing will change. The US congress does almost nothing because it is the right thing to do, but what it is paid to do.

With regards to 4th amendment exceptions for cars they are actually only in very specific circumstances and do not allow random no probable cause searches.

It is a bit ironic that a cardboard box on public land that someone is living is considered by the courts to be a house and requires probable cause and a search warrant but a boat already declared to be a house by a US government agency is not.

Well said, Captain Bill! So, can someone please provide the logic for the CG to regularly board a US recreational vessel at sea with the pretense of a drug search when the amount of drugs to be potentially intercepted are an infinitesimal amount compared to those that enter through our US Southern border and by submarine into various areas along our coast? Aside from terrifying those aboard, what is the purpose? How is the safety of the crew or the citizens of the US affected by their actions? I believe Bill is correct that it is a money issue and with some serious lobbying(as with the NRA) and a test case it would not hold up constitutionally in Federal Court. I have a very difficult time trying to understand how some intelligent people so easily forgo their rights when there is no apparent logic to a government action. Can someone explain?
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Old 19-10-2015, 10:55   #146
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Re: U.S. Coast Guard boarding experience (not typical i dont think)

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Because I'm Australian I'm clearly replying from an Australian perspective and even then it depends on the states laws. Queensland seems to have more Liberal laws than the rest of us for example. But here, police can take photo's in crowds as anyone can, but they cannot take a mug shot photo routinely for record keeping. Not without what you guys might call probable cause. Here, certain offences have to be committed or certain other offences have to be suspected. Without that criteria then police need a warrant.

But, your border crossings aside, a non US ship in non US waters, e.g International waters, then I cannot possibly see how the US Government has an extention of border protection for any foreign flagged vessel in International waters..
US law enforcement has been using video cameras in cars for years now. With recent events, some officers are being issued body cameras to film interactions with the public. The car, and now body cameras, where/and are being issued due to public, or at least political, demand. Going to be interesting to see how agencies are going to store the huge volume of video....

My comments are regarding US flagged boats or boats entering US waters and the governments ability to board and search said vessels is derived from border control laws. People here do not like the governments searching of their boats which is understandable but one also needs to understand that this same "boarding" occurs to vehicles moving into/out of the US. It also applies to people crossing the boarders. This is a very broad government power regarding boarder control that applies to more than just vessels.

As has been mentioned, the USCG is stopping and searching vessels at sea based on agreements with the ships flag state, and I would guess, a lack of said flag state, or due to international law.

Can the USCG legally board an Aussie vessel cruising across the Pacific? I would doubt it unless there is an agreement with Australia or the vessels has been seen to be up to no good. But this is not something I have looked into since it will not apply to me.

Later,
Dan
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Old 19-10-2015, 11:03   #147
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Re: U.S. Coast Guard boarding experience (not typical i dont think)

As of 2003 the CG became part of "Homeland Security", I think there may have been an attitude shift about this time.

This page list the duties and responsibilities of the CG, notice SAR is #4
USCG: About Us
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Old 19-10-2015, 11:59   #148
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Re: U.S. Coast Guard boarding experience (not typical i dont think)

With the electronic coms of today, between counties I am sure it would only take a couple of hours to get the necessary permits, to do almost anything.
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Old 19-10-2015, 12:10   #149
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Re: U.S. Coast Guard boarding experience (not typical i dont think)

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... There's gotta be SOMETHING arranged under international agreement(s) of which we (or at least I) have no written reference.
Here is a (dated) list of countries that have "martime law enforcement agreements" with the US.

22. List of maritime counter narcotics law enforcement agreements signed by the United States as of August 2005

I see that the UK is included. Gosh, things have changed since 1776!

C
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Old 19-10-2015, 12:14   #150
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Re: U.S. Coast Guard boarding experience (not typical i dont think)

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Here is a (dated) list of countries that have "martime law enforcement agreements" with the US.

22. List of maritime counter narcotics law enforcement agreements signed by the United States as of August 2005

I see that the UK is included. Gosh, things have changed since 1776!

C
Interesting link. Glaringly absent are Canada and Mexico.

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