Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 12-01-2016, 02:18   #61
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

And a word about LPG heaters, cookers etc.

The main danger with LPG is with the gas leaking after you turn the stove off. Which is why every boat should have an alarm detector for LPG/Butane and not just a CO detector, which will not pick this up.

When using an LPG appliance like a cooker, it's essential there is good air availability, because without good air around it, the flame will start producing Carbon Monoxide in small quantities. You see this when the flame goes orange instead of blue. This then becomes the danger of using a gas heater in an enclosed areas such as a boat, with all the windows and gangway shut up, you will stifle it and it will start producing Carbon Monoxide.
__________________

__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 02:28   #62
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: vessel sold at LAKES ENTRANCE to a local. Currently nursing my 93 Y/o mother in Sydney. Next boat probably will be bought in the U.S.
Boat: triton 721 24' x 9' 1985 Cutter rigged.
Posts: 922
Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

MATT. Many people here have possibly come to the conclusion that i'm not the brightest kid on the dock.
And frankly, I'd rather wait on the C.I.
But as I see it these are the following likely locations for a running portable generator viz:
On the marlin board...unlikely to have caused fatalaties when dilution is allowed for.

On the foredeck....ditto unless a foredeck hatch was open and the boys were found in v berths under the hypothetical genny.

On the flybridge....unlikely ditto dilution.

In the saloon...not conducive to peace .

Or...in the cockpit with a stern breeze, doors open and a foredeck hatch open allowing a through draft of CO.

Speculation, as in the foregoing, is loathsome given the sensitivity of this horrible event. Already one poster on this thread reports having been anchored near this vessel. Reading his post enabled even the least aware of us to read of his/her shock/distress.

I really wish I hadn't added to the spec but out of respect for all I felt that an impassionate view was warranted, especially as it was you, Matt, who queried my "cockpit" observation and you've already earnt my respect for numerous.
Cheers.
__________________

__________________
brianlara 3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 02:42   #63
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: vessel sold at LAKES ENTRANCE to a local. Currently nursing my 93 Y/o mother in Sydney. Next boat probably will be bought in the U.S.
Boat: triton 721 24' x 9' 1985 Cutter rigged.
Posts: 922
Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
And a word about LPG heaters, cookers etc.

The main danger with LPG is with the gas leaking after you turn the stove off. Which is why every boat should have an alarm detector for LPG/Butane and not just a CO detector, which will not pick this up.

When using an LPG appliance like a cooker, it's essential there is good air availability, because without good air around it, the flame will start producing Carbon Monoxide in small quantities. You see this when the flame goes orange instead of blue. This then becomes the danger of using a gas heater in an enclosed areas such as a boat, with all the windows and gangway shut up, you will stifle it and it will start producing Carbon Monoxide.

Rusty. I'm shocked to learn that there are boat cookers without 'Thermo-couples'.
Furthermore, and a gas expert may differ, but it seems to me that CO is produced, mostly, in the presence of a catalyst. And the catalyst is carbon/iron oxide.. Usually, a jet/orifice partially blocked by crud/spilt foot/rusted burners, burns with a yellowish/orange partial flame which is the most obvious sign for the likes of us that incomplete combustion is taking place and that CO production WILL result.
But I'm NOT the definitave expert, just a fitter and a bit old.
Cheers Rusty.
__________________
brianlara 3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 02:59   #64
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

Quote:
Originally Posted by brianlara 3 View Post
MATT. Many people here have possibly come to the conclusion that i'm not the brightest kid on the dock.
And frankly, I'd rather wait on the C.I.
But as I see it these are the following likely locations for a running portable generator viz:
On the marlin board...unlikely to have caused fatalaties when dilution is allowed for.

On the foredeck....ditto unless a foredeck hatch was open and the boys were found in v berths under the hypothetical genny.

On the flybridge....unlikely ditto dilution.

In the saloon...not conducive to peace .

Or...in the cockpit with a stern breeze, doors open and a foredeck hatch open allowing a through draft of CO.

Speculation, as in the foregoing, is loathsome given the sensitivity of this horrible event. Already one poster on this thread reports having been anchored near this vessel. Reading his post enabled even the least aware of us to read of his/her shock/distress.

I really wish I hadn't added to the spec but out of respect for all I felt that an impassionate view was warranted, especially as it was you, Matt, who queried my "cockpit" observation and you've already earnt my respect for numerous.
Cheers.
You have astute observations I apologise if I sounded like I was putting what you said down. I didn't mean to do that just pointing out that we don't know as yet where they were running it. They may have been running it in the engine bay? Don't know.
__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 03:07   #65
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

Quote:
Originally Posted by brianlara 3 View Post
Rusty. I'm shocked to learn that there are boat cookers without 'Thermo-couples'.
Furthermore, and a gas expert may differ, but it seems to me that CO is produced, mostly, in the presence of a catalyst. And the catalyst is carbon/iron oxide.. Usually, a jet/orifice partially blocked by crud/spilt foot/rusted burners, burns with a yellowish/orange partial flame which is the most obvious sign for the likes of us that incomplete combustion is taking place and that CO production WILL result.
But I'm NOT the definitave expert, just a fitter and a bit old.
Cheers Rusty.
I don't know about cookers without 'thermo couples' ?

You are right, CO will be produced by poorly maintained equipment such as a jet blocked. But in small amounts. If you take away fresh air around the appliance though? What do you get? A poorly burning gas, which produces large amounts of CO. And yes, the flame turns orange.
__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 03:13   #66
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: vessel sold at LAKES ENTRANCE to a local. Currently nursing my 93 Y/o mother in Sydney. Next boat probably will be bought in the U.S.
Boat: triton 721 24' x 9' 1985 Cutter rigged.
Posts: 922
Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
You have astute observations I apologise if I sounded like I was putting what you said down. I didn't mean to do that just pointing out that we don't know as yet where they were running it. They may have been running it in the engine bay? Don't know.
Rusty, re: the "astute observations" ahm, you wouldn't be peeing in my pocket would you?
ALL of us know I'm a bit of a dunce.
Could it be you are planning another haul-out in july knowing that I should be in town and am a good mechanic/sparkie/gas thingy/****-hot welder ??????
But...it was nice, bullshit or not.
And Rusty, you aint a puttererdownerer from what I can tell.

Do I have to supply my own welding wire/rods, sanding discs/, electrical rerminals, gas fittings etc when I'm in Taswegia working on your boat???

Don't answer here on CF, send pm.
Laura. No, not a poof.
__________________
brianlara 3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 03:24   #67
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: vessel sold at LAKES ENTRANCE to a local. Currently nursing my 93 Y/o mother in Sydney. Next boat probably will be bought in the U.S.
Boat: triton 721 24' x 9' 1985 Cutter rigged.
Posts: 922
Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
I don't know about cookers without 'thermo couples' ?

You are right, CO will be produced by poorly maintained equipment such as a jet blocked. But in small amounts. If you take away fresh air around the appliance though? What do you get? A poorly burning gas, which produces large amounts of CO. And yes, the flame turns orange.
Yep. Turn on oxy-acetylene gas torches. Set the controls nicely. Now back the oxy off and the orange starts to appear, eventually no no oxy, no blue flame and heaps of uncombusted acetylene/air suspended soot and lots of noxious gasses.

Smart bugger you are, and no, I'm not a pocketpeererinner, unless looking at the wrong end of an AK47.

Rusty, I'm 69...with all your knowlege I'm guessing....er 88...91 ? 97 ?
__________________
brianlara 3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 03:54   #68
Marine Service Provider
 
Factor's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Corsair Dash MKII
Posts: 4,082
Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
And a word about LPG heaters, cookers etc.

The main danger with LPG is with the gas leaking after you turn the stove off. .
Shouldn't happen (not to say it doesn't) Stove should have a thermocouple and gas should be turned off at an inline and or bottle.
__________________
Factor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 04:28   #69
Bailing as fast as I can.
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Boat: Swanson 42
Posts: 3,585
Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

Just to clarify my thoughts...

RC is correct in stating that we don't know where the generator was stored while running, but my reiteration of Brian's observation about the boat shape was more to explain that I would not have considered this aspect of the boat's enclosed design until Brian pointed it out.

Second, regarding whether the crew of the boat should have been aware of the dangers and what level of competence they may or may not have held in boat operation, I freely confess that despite having grown up around boats all my life, and having sailed independently from the age of four, I simply might never have considered the risk of CO poisoning from a generator. And yet I have been acutely aware of CO issues from years of driving very suspect old cars. Maybe the fact that all of my boats have been either outboard powered or very Spartan in their facilities is a contributing factor.

But the main thing is, I have a tertiary education in Science and a good enough IQ to tie my shoes without help but I am stunned to discover that I simply did not understand fully the risks of such systems (generators and LPG appliances) on boats. And if someone with my background can miss many of these traps what hope does a boat newbie have of avoiding such pitfalls?

Today I bought two CO detectors on my way home. They were AU$57 each, have a ten year rated battery life (like my very ugly new EPIRB) and one will go in the boat while the other will go in the hall outside our bedrooms because we have gas fired central heating. No, I am not one of those too frightened to step outside my door for fear of the sky falling, but equally I am not one to ignore a tragic and painful lesson learned by another.

Rest their souls.

Matt


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
http://www.swansonsailor.id.au
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 05:27   #70
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: vessel sold at LAKES ENTRANCE to a local. Currently nursing my 93 Y/o mother in Sydney. Next boat probably will be bought in the U.S.
Boat: triton 721 24' x 9' 1985 Cutter rigged.
Posts: 922
Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

I think I'm good at bareing my butt but this story takes the cake. Read and learn.
For those of you who have never done anything seriously dumb start laughing at me ...now!!
Three years ago in Batemans Bay NSW Oz, at anchor and totally smashed on Morphine (90mg day), Oxycontin 30mg, Effexor antidepressant 300mg, Temazepam sleepers 30mg...all because of injuries from an accident with surgery not an option, I was an accident waiting to happen.

Firstly, because it was too painful to climb out of the cabin into the cockpit, my Kipor 1000w genny (for the 40A charger) was ON THE PORT SIDE COCKPIT SEAT CLOSE TO THE CABIN with the exhausr facing rearwards and the pull handle near the companionway. Dont laugh, it was that way or a year in hospital.

Now the really hot part.
One day, all 3 washboards in place, I was watching Dr Phil with the genny charging the batteries during brunch.
For some reason which I'll never know a terrible panic hit me and I'm definately not a pannicky person.
In this instantaneous, overwhealmin panic I tore to the steps, flung the washboards into the cockpit and there, less than 4 inches from the exhaust outlet was a 1 litre bottle of Acetone, all puffed up and almost spherical........
I knew it was about to blow and in a millisecond I tripped the stop lever and dropped onto the floor scrambling toward the for'd hatch and dive out onto the foredeck waiting for the explosion to hurl me overboard....
The bomb didn't go off and an hour later I sneaked back in, lightly touched the obviously still balooned tin to test for stress and it was cool and secure. Another hour passed before I went on deck and carefully loosed the lid which was not pressurised.

Despite not yet having anything more than coastal experience I'm pretty professional with regard to petrol, propane, motors etc. And yet, medicated almost to bieng comatosed I nearly blew Bateman Bay to bits with 2x 20lb gas bottles adding to the brew. Many litres of thinners, epoxies (westsystem), probably 20 litres of explosives.

Matt said earlier, that with decades of expert training and ditto of "yard smart" experience he, like all of us can make near fatal silly mistakes.
So what chance the poor buggers who are less experienced than us?

Clearly, the inquest will divulge all, the reasons why the generator was running as the Guys were asleep.
Until then we wait and this old bastard is so glad it was two lives lost and not four.

The medication induced stupour which caused the above is nothing compared to some of the other stuff I've done by the way.

Will I personally start turning my bottles off? Of course not. I plumbed the system and if it aint broke don't fix it. My thermo-couples work perfectly, my bottles and plumbing are seriously well secured (incl for total inversion) , and I NEVER take the lid off my frying pan until the gas has been turned off, not even to turn a pancake.
Thanks for listening.
Ps...a fire caused by toast burning is a common event here !!!
Pps..this is on a tablet...editing too hard.
__________________
brianlara 3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 14:36   #71
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow View Post
Just to clarify my thoughts...

RC is correct in stating that we don't know where the generator was stored while running, but my reiteration of Brian's observation about the boat shape was more to explain that I would not have considered this aspect of the boat's enclosed design until Brian pointed it out.

Second, regarding whether the crew of the boat should have been aware of the dangers and what level of competence they may or may not have held in boat operation, I freely confess that despite having grown up around boats all my life, and having sailed independently from the age of four, I simply might never have considered the risk of CO poisoning from a generator. And yet I have been acutely aware of CO issues from years of driving very suspect old cars. Maybe the fact that all of my boats have been either outboard powered or very Spartan in their facilities is a contributing factor.

But the main thing is, I have a tertiary education in Science and a good enough IQ to tie my shoes without help but I am stunned to discover that I simply did not understand fully the risks of such systems (generators and LPG appliances) on boats. And if someone with my background can miss many of these traps what hope does a boat newbie have of avoiding such pitfalls?

Today I bought two CO detectors on my way home. They were AU$57 each, have a ten year rated battery life (like my very ugly new EPIRB) and one will go in the boat while the other will go in the hall outside our bedrooms because we have gas fired central heating. No, I am not one of those too frightened to step outside my door for fear of the sky falling, but equally I am not one to ignore a tragic and painful lesson learned by another.

Rest their souls.

Matt


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
A fair enough comment I guess it's well publicised in this part of Australia because we have had a number of deaths over the past thirty years and we are relatively small.
__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 14:50   #72
Registered User
 
Rustic Charm's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Bieroc 36 foot Ketch
Posts: 4,898
Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

Not sure if this is conjecture on behalf of reporters, but this mornings paper claims the generator was being used to power refrigeration.
__________________
Rustic Charm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 14:59   #73
Registered User
 
Lizzy Belle's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Netherlands
Boat: Ohlson 29
Posts: 1,522
Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow View Post
Today I bought two CO detectors on my way home. They were AU$57 each, have a ten year rated battery life


On a side note for all the EU readers: recently there was a huge fuss here in the Netherlands because they tested 15 brands of CO and CO/Smoke detectors sold in the EU (with all the safely labels and all) and found over half of them faulty ...

I'd still install them, but please, please be alert as well and use common sense too
Don't trust a piece of plastic with your life.
__________________
"Il faut Ítre toujours ivre." - Charles Baudelaire
Dutch ♀ Liveaboard, sharing an Ohlson 29 with a feline.
Lizzy Belle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 15:04   #74
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: vessel sold at LAKES ENTRANCE to a local. Currently nursing my 93 Y/o mother in Sydney. Next boat probably will be bought in the U.S.
Boat: triton 721 24' x 9' 1985 Cutter rigged.
Posts: 922
Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

Most of the power from my Sterling Pro 12/60 is used to run my tiny Waeco freezer.

A Sri Lankan man, living in Greystanes NSW, on 18th july 2015 was pronounced deceased after having used a frying pan full of barbeque fuel (Heatbeads actually) as a heater in his bedroom. He assisted the distribution of CO with a tiny electric fan heater.
Nothing produces CO faster than glowing heat and carbon.

The packaging warns about potential dangers but most of us are too smart to need to read the instruction manual.
__________________
brianlara 3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2016, 15:07   #75
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: vessel sold at LAKES ENTRANCE to a local. Currently nursing my 93 Y/o mother in Sydney. Next boat probably will be bought in the U.S.
Boat: triton 721 24' x 9' 1985 Cutter rigged.
Posts: 922
Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post


On a side note for all the EU readers: recently there was a huge fuss here in the Netherlands because they tested 15 brands of CO and CO/Smoke detectors sold in the EU (with all the safely labels and all) and found over half of them faulty ...

I'd still install them, but please, please be alert as well and use common sense too
Don't trust a piece of plastic with your life.
Yes. Detectors are a back up for common sense, nothing more than that.
__________________

__________________
brianlara 3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
TRAGIC SINKING of Classic Sailing Yacht "PPALU" beiland Multihull Sailboats 2 01-03-2015 06:23
Tragic Accident in New Caledonia nhschneider Health, Safety & Related Gear 9 30-11-2010 09:34



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:35.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.