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Old 11-01-2016, 22:44   #46
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Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

Also it appears that LPG is a combination of propane and butane, though what relevance this has I do not know.


The proportions change between winter and summer in places with cold climates.


The various hydrocarbon gasses, methane, propane, butane are not themselves poisonous however they will smother you if the concentration is high enough to provide an atmosphere with insufficient oxygen.


The problem is usually carbon monoxide which is a sneaky silent killer which tends to put you to sleep before it kills you.


Years ago a volunteer sea rescue boat towed a ferrocement yacht with a hole in it into a marina I was staying in. I was horrified to find it had four petrol driven pumps down below keeping it afloat. I roped off the companionway and asked the owner's partner to make sure no one went below whilst I went to help rig up some other pumps. When I came back the ropes had been removed and she was no where to be seen. By this time you could see the fumes down below. Not enough people are aware of the dangers of carbon monoxide.
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Old 11-01-2016, 23:00   #47
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Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

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Originally Posted by brianlara 3 View Post
Can't assume shore power was available...casual berthing looking at the picture.
I'm thinking lpg heater too but Hobart, middle of summer ??
Coroners findings will come soon enough.
Thankfully not 4 lives lost it seems.
Who knows, the little girl may have terribly seasick in the open waters of Bicheno, totally unrelated.
Something good comes from everything.
Good idea from Matt to keep this going.
If it's an LPG leak, it wouldn't be for a heater in this weather. It would be for a stove, oven or fridge. All of which can leak through the night.

For what ever reason though, it sounds like they had a genny running, in which case it sounds like it will be Carbon Monoxide poisening.
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Old 11-01-2016, 23:37   #48
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Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
If it's an LPG leak, it wouldn't be for a heater in this weather. It would be for a stove, oven or fridge. All of which can leak through the night.

For what ever reason though, it sounds like they had a genny running, in which case it sounds like it will be Carbon Monoxide poisening.
All highly likely imo.
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Old 12-01-2016, 00:15   #49
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Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

Announced on tonight's news that the initial caused advised to the coroner is Carbon monoxide poisoning from a petrol genny on board.

Now it will be up to an inquest later in the year to confirm this, once toxicology results are in.
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Old 12-01-2016, 00:21   #50
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Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

Onya.
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Old 12-01-2016, 00:26   #51
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Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Announced on tonight's news that the initial caused advised to the coroner is Carbon monoxide poisoning from a petrol genny on board.

Now it will be up to an inquest later in the year to confirm this, once toxicology results are in.
Initial results are likely to be conclusive. One of the features of CO poisoning is that the deceased remain pink for many hours, due to the strong binding of the CO to hemoglobin. In any case, very sad and avoidable. The girl's airlift should have alerted them to the idea that something may have been wrong. Likely they felt "under the weather" also, as is often reported in near fatal poisonings. Likely took to bed to aid recovery from a "flu" that never was, and this sealed their fate. Likely awareness of CO in this case would have saved all involved. Obviously final word remains to be said. But highlighting the dangers and also the warning signs of this largely undetectable (to humans) killer will encourage others to install CO alarms and be aware that that "flu" they think they have caught may be something much more sinister, and more deadly.
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Old 12-01-2016, 00:32   #52
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Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

A CO detector really is essential on a boat. Mine is wired to the same breaker as the propane solenoid, so you can't have propane on without the CO alarm. On one occasion it went off from the fumes of a nearby idling boat.

Get one for your boat, and a couple for home.
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Old 12-01-2016, 00:37   #53
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Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

Well, this has been an education. The Carbon Monoxide issues, while generally familiar to me, turn out to be more widespread than I had thought. I honestly felt there was no CO risk from our LPG installation on the boat, and would have seriously considered using the oven to heat the boat in extremis. I will no longer consider that option.


The petrol generator CO issue, while being something I was aware of, has taken on a much more significant risk in my mind after Brian's observation about the shape of the back of the boat in question. It is a great big bucket and it is retrospectively easy to see how putting a generator out on the back deck could feel totally safe while being quite deadly. I was aware of the risks but had not connected the dots.


I shall bring this post to the attention of the mods and ask whether they would consider a Carbon Monoxide sticky to be worth having for the health and safety thread under life aboard. Although we are documenting the serious risks involved here, they are also discussed elsewhere, but do not jump out at you the way a sticky might.


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Old 12-01-2016, 00:43   #54
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Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

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A CO detector really is essential on a boat. Mine is wired to the same breaker as the propane solenoid, so you can't have propane on without the CO alarm. On one occasion it went off from the fumes of a nearby idling boat.

Get one for your boat, and a couple for home.
Stopping at Bunnies on my way home tonight!
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Old 12-01-2016, 01:04   #55
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Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

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A CO detector really is essential on a boat. Mine is wired to the same breaker as the propane solenoid, so you can't have propane on without the CO alarm. On one occasion it went off from the fumes of a nearby idling boat.

Get one for your boat, and a couple for home.
I had a similar experience and the closest I have come to asphyxiating was in a small bowl shaped anchorage on the North coast of Lombok, in Indonesia. The Indonesians, when they can be bothered to get rid of rubbish/garbage at all, tend to do it by burning in open fires. On this particular night there were many such fires burning at the edge of this small bay, in the dead still calm. That said I am not sure what the fumes were in that case. Only that they displaced the air to a degree which left me gasping for breath.

But yes, a CO detector should be de rigeur on boats, along with a multi gas alarm. In the latter case I really rate the Nereus alarm with multiple truly waterproof sensors and integrated gas solenoid, by the way, and no, I am not an agent.
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Old 12-01-2016, 01:05   #56
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Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

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Stopping at Bunnies on my way home tonight!
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Old 12-01-2016, 01:11   #57
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Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

Yes got mine from Bunnies. Bought four. 2 in use as described and 2 spares.

MUCH safer than those awful solenoids

Forgot to mention...in between my reg and the bottle is a U.K. product called GAS FUSE.
Been available in Oz about 25 years, used by me and everyone I know for ditto.
Watch the video. Gasfuse. Safer than solenoids @ @ @ with gas level gauge + + + + on and on.
Apart from having done my own install, Gasfuse is another reason I WOULD NEVER touch the taps
Taps on a n y bottle can leak, especially on exchange bottles esp when 20 years old tested or not.
In last 6 years 2 exchange bottles I swapped leaked from the shaft at 'turn-on'.
But if you get a bigger DH, your propane systemboat you wont need gas.....turn of your 6kv inverter and boil the billy.
You're proposed inverter (on it's own) would sink this toy boat DH.
DH, had you not had a near catastrophy with a (terrible) solenoid then possibly your next boat might also be cooking with gas in the same way your last high latitude boats galley did.
We do use solenoids in automotive installations but roads dont have bilges.
Just an opinion from an installer. And sure, gas fitter DO fit solenoids as per owners request because really, very few fail....a few to many for this fitter.
A final question.
How many of you would fit a solenoid controlled sea-cock??
If not, why not?
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Old 12-01-2016, 01:58   #58
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Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaymondR View Post
Also it appears that LPG is a combination of propane and butane, though what relevance this has I do not know.


The proportions change between winter and summer in places with cold climates.


The various hydrocarbon gasses, methane, propane, butane are not themselves poisonous however they will smother you if the concentration is high enough to provide an atmosphere with insufficient oxygen.


The problem is usually carbon monoxide which is a sneaky silent killer which tends to put you to sleep before it kills you.


Years ago a volunteer sea rescue boat towed a ferrocement yacht with a hole in it into a marina I was staying in. I was horrified to find it had four petrol driven pumps down below keeping it afloat. I roped off the companionway and asked the owner's partner to make sure no one went below whilst I went to help rig up some other pumps. When I came back the ropes had been removed and she was no where to be seen. By this time you could see the fumes down below. Not enough people are aware of the dangers of carbon monoxide.
I've been involved in three Carbon Monoxide deaths of which one was a suicide. It is said to be a pleasant way to go. It firsts removes your ability to care and thus, even with accidental deaths, the victim is likely to know they are in trouble, but just don't care and are unable to do anything about it. They within a short period of time faint and never wake up.

Along with your story there is an Australian story of a ship, I think it was a navy ship where four sailors perished, one after the other. The first one was noticed from on top of a stair well and another four went down to help and succumbed one after the other until it was realized what was going on. It's the danger of confined spaces.
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Old 12-01-2016, 02:00   #59
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Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow View Post
Well, this has been an education. The Carbon Monoxide issues, while generally familiar to me, turn out to be more widespread than I had thought. I honestly felt there was no CO risk from our LPG installation on the boat, and would have seriously considered using the oven to heat the boat in extremis. I will no longer consider that option.


The petrol generator CO issue, while being something I was aware of, has taken on a much more significant risk in my mind after Brian's observation about the shape of the back of the boat in question. It is a great big bucket and it is retrospectively easy to see how putting a generator out on the back deck could feel totally safe while being quite deadly. I was aware of the risks but had not connected the dots.


I shall bring this post to the attention of the mods and ask whether they would consider a Carbon Monoxide sticky to be worth having for the health and safety thread under life aboard. Although we are documenting the serious risks involved here, they are also discussed elsewhere, but do not jump out at you the way a sticky might.


Matt
You don't know that it was on the back. The police simply said it had a petrol genny on board.
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Old 12-01-2016, 02:06   #60
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Re: Tragic situation in Tasmania

I think you guys are missing the point with this incident. The main lesson.

Yes, CO is dangerous and having a CO detector on board is a good idea. BUT, the lesson to learn here is NOT to have a petrol generator on board in a position that it's fumes can permeate inside. That's what we should be learning, not have a CO detector and then go and still do the same wrong thing.

I'm somewhat surprised at what these guys have reportedly done. But they may be very amateurish with nothing than a speed boat license between them. I know off the boat and of one of the three people, but I don't know them personally, so I can't answer from a personal perspective. But it seems to me to be very poor form to run a generator on a boat where the exhaust can enter the main cabin. At all.
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