Tragic situation in Tasmania

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It should. "Should". But is it guaranteed to fail closed? I had one burn up, for God's sake!!

Everyone should have one of these, but they are not magic bullets.

Solenoids are mechanical, and as I tell every person I see putting their spouse up a mast with no safety line on a powered winch, at some point any mariner is GUARANTEED to see one fail in the wrong position. Stick, basically. And yes, anything can fail. I like to have my solenoid fitted outside the gas locker for this exact reason. So, solenoid, manual shut off, and flame out. But for the record I agree with your overall position, and think we should do without propane entirely, if at all possible, as the likes of induction becomes more technologically reasonable on smaller boats.

[Jim Cate]

DH, I'm somewhat amused by your fear of propane when in another current thread you blithely relate sailing in full gale conditions up the down staircase in a traffic separation zone. There you mitigated the danger to t he best of your ability, but a real, life threatening danger was there none the less. And this was a situation that you could have avoided, I suspect, by delaying your passage (surely the met guys had noted a storm of that intensity in the forecasts??)

Everyone evaluates hazards in their own way, but the tens of thousands of successful and explosion free propane installations do suggest that if properly installed and used, propane isn't all that dangerous.

In the case in Hobart, if it proves to have been due to CO poisoning, what was the source? I wouldn't be surprised if it was some sort of jury rigged heater, for there would be little need for running a gen set when in th marina with shore power available. Seems like there are all too frequent deaths from small heaters in enclosed spaces. Asphyxiation from propane isn't all that likely IMO...

At any rate, my sympathy to the families... a tragic and wasteful loss.

Jim

[GILow]

I thought we used LPG in our gas cylinders here in Oz and I believe (though I could be wrong) that burning LPG in the normal manner does not produce Carbon Monoxide.

Edit: just did a bit of lightweight www research and I discover I am a bit wrong. LPG CAN produce CO if not burned correctly. Any hint of yellow in the flame indicates poor combustion and the production of CO. Also it appears that LPG is a combination of propane and butane, though what relevance this has I do not know.

LPG can still blow the boat out of the water of course, so all precautions that can be taken the better, but from what I have picked up over the years the little petrol gensets are the sleeper threat for Australian boats. Because we don't normally have CO detectors fitted to our boats. And I could not find an Australian regulation requiring that they be fitted.

Matt


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[brianlara 3]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

The faint smell was due to other particulates in that rather clean burning diesel engine. Carbon Monoxide itself, of course, is odorless and undetectable by humans, which is one of the reasons it is so dangerous. Also, since it binds to hemoglobin, it is breathed without a feeling of breathlessness or airlessness. Unfortunately it binds to hemoglobin more tenaciously than oxygen and thereby gradually prevents the uptake of oxygen by the blood. This is why it is a silent, often undetected and undetectable killer. Any engine, generator, stove, or fossil burning heating system can rapidly produce fatal levels of CO. Motoring on a still day can also drag CO into the boat via the "station wagon effect" (see attached images).

I have actually witnessed the lifeless bodies of two littlies in the back of their grandparents Ford Transit van. After travelling less than 50ml asleep on a matress in the back it was too late.
The bottom half of the tailgate seal gad been missing for a long time. The black soot deposits were heavy around the t/gate aperture.
Immesurable suffering for all.
Taigate seals on vans and wagons people ....
After that, every vehicle I examined for annual registration got a serious inspection.
And like Muckle says....it happens on boats, diesel or petrol, WHERE THERE ARE NO MECHANICAL OR COMBUSTION ISSUES.
Motoring/motor sailing....very light following breeze.
Be aware.
MATT, thanks for suggesting this discussion takes place at this sad but relevent time.
Possibly, posts such as Muggles can avert other tragedies.
Thank God this event didn't take more lives huh?

[brianlara 3]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Good practice and common sense (actually) calls for no heavier than air gasses and no combustion inside the passenger space in a small seagoing vessel. Some decades ago when it wasn't practical to have enough electrical power on board for electric cooking, we didn't have much choice about propane. Now we do.

I will not have any kind of propane aboard my next boat, and the engine room will be totally sealed with a non-communicating bilge. Any space heaters (like my Eberspacher) will be in a separate non-communicating space.

You can be reasonably safe with good alarms and equipment kept in good condition and regularly inspected, and operated with care. But why risk it if you can cook without propane? And without the combustion products produced by burning propane in your space?

I suspect that very few cruising vessels are big enough to carry generators capable of supplying sufficient energy for cooking.
Fossil fuel cooking is the only way for people with small boats.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by GILow

I thought we used LPG in our gas cylinders here in Oz and I believe (though I could be wrong) that burning LPG in the normal manner does not produce Carbon Monoxide.

Edit: just did a bit of lightweight www research and I discover I am a bit wrong. LPG CAN produce CO if not burned correctly. Any hint of yellow in the flame indicates poor combustion and the production of CO. Also it appears that LPG is a combination of propane and butane, though what relevance this has I do not know.

LPG can still blow the boat out of the water of course, so all precautions that can be taken the better, but from what I have picked up over the years the little petrol gensets are the sleeper threat for Australian boats. Because we don't normally have CO detectors fitted to our boats. And I could not find an Australian regulation requiring that they be fitted.

Matt


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

The danger with LP is not when they are burning and being used. It's the failing to turn them off at the bottle and the item being used leak, e.g oven, fridge, heater (being three most common).

And whilst it's statistically not common, deaths during sleep occur way too often in Australia due to leaking LP items.

Personally, I think 'gas' is a great medium for these items. It just needs to be installed professionally and that means, installation and monitoring that is appropriate.

[Rustic Charm]

Todays local rag

Two mates found dead on boat | The Examiner

[Factor]

You could always turn the gas off at the bottle when finished using it and have the bottles installed in a location that means they vent to air. My last 3 or 4 boats were like this and had gas detectors, in line shut offs for each appliance, but ultimately I just had the habit of turning off at the bottle. NoNe of my engines were inside the fabric of the boat so it was only the LPG I had to manage.

[Lizzy Belle]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

Motoring on a still day can also drag CO into the boat via the "station wagon effect" (see attached images).

That's what happened to me and my brother when we were small.
We were in the V-berth and way too quiet, so our mom came to check on us, found she couldn't wake us up.

Lots of panic and not easy getting to hospital soon, but it all ended OK - luckily.
If she'd decided to enjoy the piece and quiet for a bit, it would have ended very differently.

I always warn people, but sometimes it's like talking to a wall

Like me, some other boats here use a Zibro heater. No problem, IF you ventilate, ventilate, ventilate.
A couple of weeks ago I heard that a couple I'd warned a couple of times found their dog out cold in the cabin with the heater on. The closed cabin, so it stayed nice and warm ...
Dog is OK, and I hope they'll now take the ventilation part more serious, esp cos they also keep in on at night (I never, ever do).

[brianlara 3]

Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle

That's what happened to me and my brother when we were small.
We were in the V-berth and way too quiet, so our mom came to check on us, found she couldn't wake us up.

Lots of panic and not easy getting to hospital soon, but it all ended OK - luckily.
If she'd decided to enjoy the piece and quiet for a bit, it would have ended very differently.

I always warn people, but sometimes it's like talking to a wall

Like me, some other boats here use a Zibro heater. No problem, IF you ventilate, ventilate, ventilate.
A couple of weeks ago I heard that a couple I'd warned a couple of times found their dog out cold in the cabin with the heater on. The closed cabin, so it stayed nice and warm ...
Dog is OK, and I hope they'll now take the ventilation part more serious, esp cos they also keep in on at night (I never, ever do).

Good on you for talking a lot, warning people, careing about others.
Many people don't have the courage (don't care??) to speak out like you do.
I know that I'll never stop warning others, keeping an eye on whats going on around me.
Keep up the battle Girl.....it hurts your head but worth the pain.

[Rustic Charm]

A really good read on gas

Safe Boat Propane System Installation

[brianlara 3]

Look at the very large and well defined image of this 33 ft cruiser. There are police investigators standing in the cockpit, it's fairly typical of boats built in the 70's huge enclosed cockpit with reasonably high combings, likely slidi g doors.
The police were quoted (if you can believe quotes) as saying that a petrol generator was of interest.
If the culprit turns out to be a portable genny you can be sure it wasn't on the marlin board.
Where else but on the floor of the cockpit?
Mine sits on the poop well out over the transom, like my 2 x 20lb gas bottles.
Being, apart from other quals, a licensed automotive lpg installer (read taxis...many thousands of lpg taxis in Sydney) , I would NEVER have a solenoid for the same reasons Dockhead experienced.
Proper taps only for me.
AND, I haven't turned the valves off in 6 years of 24x7x364. Much more chance of incident getting to the taps than having a leak.
I have 2 multi gas monitors (ONLY AA battery powered for me). One close to the cabin sole and the other is a foot from my face when in my bunk.
And when I'm in Tassie in winter with my tiny propane heater burning (during the day only, that's why we have DOONAS !!!) a 38mm pvc conduit, will exhaust any unlikely CO from 2" above the sole to an open ventilation hatch above the stoves range hood.
The S.G. of CO, @ 20 degrees C is about .980....very close to air. Easy stuff to exhaust without a blower.
But fwiw, tiny vapour proof fans are readily available....and I may use one 'in-line' anyway.
Yes, I know, ....watch this space Mr Murphy.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by brianlara 3

, I would NEVER have a solenoid for the same reasons Dockhead experienced.
Proper taps only for me.
AND, I haven't turned the valves off in 6 years of 24x7x364. Much more chance of incident getting to the taps than having a leak.
.

I'm really surprised you would say this. Whilst it is true statistically LPG gas leaks are few and far between (given the amount of installations across Australia), gas leaks are still way too common.

In 2012 three men including a father and son died in Tasmania in a camper due to leaking LPG

Leaking gas kills Australian campers | Stuff.co.nz

Whilst it's not confirmed yet, Media/add personality Tim Franklin died in November 2015, rumoured to have been a gas leak of LPG in his home.

And that's just in our little state. Across Australia and across the globe, deaths from LPG or Butane leaks are unecessarily common.

[brianlara 3]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

I'm really surprised you would say this. Whilst it is true statistically LPG gas leaks are few and far between (given the amount of installations across Australia), gas leaks are still way too common.

In 2012 three men including a father and son died in Tasmania in a camper due to leaking LPG

Leaking gas kills Australian campers | Stuff.co.nz

Whilst it's not confirmed yet, Media/add personality Tim Franklin died in November 2015, rumoured to have been a gas leak of LPG in his home.

And that's just in our little state. Across Australia and across the globe, deaths from LPG or Butane leaks are unecessarily common.

I KNOW Rusty!
But bet your......jewells... than none of the deceased were experts nor did they do their own installations. Just guessing.
And was it you who said today that you don't turn something or another off as protocol demands? Might not have been you... maybe some other clever Boy...can't check, not terribly important who.
Cheers Rusty.

[brianlara 3]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

DH, I'm somewhat amused by your fear of propane when in another current thread you blithely relate sailing in full gale conditions up the down staircase in a traffic separation zone. There you mitigated the danger to t he best of your ability, but a real, life threatening danger was there none the less. And this was a situation that you could have avoided, I suspect, by delaying your passage (surely the met guys had noted a storm of that intensity in the forecasts??)

Everyone evaluates hazards in their own way, but the tens of thousands of successful and explosion free propane installations do suggest that if properly installed and used, propane isn't all that dangerous.

In the case in Hobart, if it proves to have been due to CO poisoning, what was the source? I wouldn't be surprised if it was some sort of jury rigged heater, for there would be little need for running a gen set when in th marina with shore power available. Seems like there are all too frequent deaths from small heaters in enclosed spaces. Asphyxiation from propane isn't all that likely IMO...

JIM...


At any rate, my sympathy to the families... a tragic and wasteful loss.

Jim

Can't assume shore power was available...casual berthing looking at the picture.
I'm thinking lpg heater too but Hobart, middle of summer ??
Coroners findings will come soon enough.
Thankfully not 4 lives lost it seems.
Who knows, the little girl may have terribly seasick in the open waters of Bicheno, totally unrelated.
Something good comes from everything.
Good idea from Matt to keep this going.