Tolerance

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

By the way, you guys will have to keep this conversation going on without me as we,re headed for a new adventure and and another anchorage and maybe. internet service..
hope to be back on CF in a couple weeks..................Happy typing as we're out CRUISING, as thats what we are, CRUISERS..

Cruisers can type too. 2/3 of our posts have been from a boat. But happy cruising to you.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

We tend to live in tribes and are generally intolerant of people from other tribes, this has only been going on for thousands of years so its doubtful that we are going to make much headway.

Guess we've just never thought like that. We feel we can perhaps learn from the other tribes as you call them. To us the human race is one tribe.

We also learn things different ways and many of us might be able to contribute heavily on one subject, but nothing on another. If the thread is about sails and repairing them, then you've lost me completely. But if it's about many other subjects I have good experience. Some things too we learn through experience but others can be taught. Before starting to cruise I never learned CPR. I also chose not to wait until I'm at sea to figure it out, so I took a course in it and many other medical topics to be more knowledgeable. We weren't on a boat although at a Maritime school.

I know nothing about cruising around Australia but I know the East Coast of the US and the Gulf Coast and the Bahamas quite well.

Guess I'm still trying to comprehend the tribal comment. I know what he's saying is true with many and believe it does portray the thoughts of many on this forum. It's just difficult for us (wife sitting here with me) as we've never taken that approach, haven't segregated ourselves from others based on lifestyles or other issues. Our friends are about as different as possible, each unique and wonderful in their own ways.

[oceannavigator]

Originally Posted by Canibul

Except for one simple fact. You have no idea whether the name, Photo, boat name etc has anything to do with reality.

IF I start posting under the name Rasputin McGillicudy, on board the S/V Phuquehoff, with a suitable photo, you're saying suddenly whatever I post has more credibility than if I posted as my usual Gringo? ( Oops. Here it's Canibul. Gringo was already taken, although he never posts or visits.)

The difference between what gets posted on forums and what gets said face to face is pretty easy.

You can't get punched in the nose in a forum, so you can get away with whatever you want to post. These bozos who thrive on this stuff can keep pushing the limits over and over without any control to speak of. We all know how easy it is to get back on a forum after getting "banned for life". Doesn't mean anything.

Wow... the identities and usernames all change from time to time, but the boating community is actually quite small. I've been aboard your boat, Canibul! lol But I will not reveal my identity.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

It has everything to do with Tolerance, Tolerance to put up with crap from those giving information basied on something they have NO knoledge about.
Those that step forward and give information as they were ocean travelers when the nearest they have ever been to a large body of water is their bath tub.
Tolerance for bad or mis information.. I'l still be the first to say they are full of
S"""T

By the way, you guys will have to keep this conversation going on without me as we,re headed for a new adventure and and another anchorage and maybe. internet service..
hope to be back on CF in a couple weeks..................Happy typing as we're out CRUISING, as thats what we are, CRUISERS..

More power to ya!

I have no problem with you giving your opinion, or arguing with someone who is giving bad advice.

If you blast someone's opinions simply because they don't meet up with your definition of cruiser, you're the one in the wrong.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

I agree. I have run forums before and absolutely require full names on each post. Stops most crap.

I might not agree with all Mike O'Riley says but at least I know its a real person saying it.

(He, of course, agrees with everything I say! )

Name, photo, boat name = credence to post imho. (Wether they know anything or not!)

Geeze Mark, you're making me feel all warm and tingly in my dark places . I do agree (and you're right -- this may be a first for us ).

The argument against demanding real names and real identities is always that we can't really know, so why bother. This is absolutely true; 100% certainty is not possible. But research shown that most people, when faced with a demand for their identity, do comply. There will be some who don't, but most will. And again, actual evidence shows (as MarkJ says) that this improves the general civility of online forums.

I don't like the word tolerance. I don't give a rat's bum whether someone tolerates my views. What I do want and expect is basic civility when disagreement occurs. This is much easier to do when you actually know someone. Face-to-face is best, b/c of all the non-verbal communication that can happen, but just treating people as people goes a long way to promoting more civil discourse. This is easier when you know something about the person: like their real name.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

We tend to live in tribes and are generally intolerant of people from other tribes, this has only been going on for thousands of years so its doubtful that we are going to make much headway.

I'm afraid you're right, but who would we be if we didn't try?

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

The argument against demanding real names and real identities is always that we can't really know, so why bother. This is absolutely true; 100% certainty is not possible. But research shown that most people, when faced with a demand for their identity, do comply. There will be some who don't, but most will. And again, actual evidence shows (as MarkJ says) that this improves the general civility of online forums.

We don't disclose full information on line in a public forum for a couple of reasons. The primary one is that we do travel a lot and don't want the world to know our schedule or that we're 3000 miles from home today so it might be a good day to try a robbery. Also, we don't like to be targeted by salesmen, fund raisers, and various others. However, we've given plenty of people our names and our regular email addresses in private and established friendships starting there. As to disclosing it to a person who has just wished harm on my wife and kid (imaginary kid I guess as we have none although are very active with an orphanage so guess they count), then I don't care to share further information with them.

While the majority of people here are those we'd have no problem sharing more information with, there are a limited few who we would never trust with such information.

[jeepbluetj]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

I have no problem with you giving your opinion, or arguing with someone who is giving bad advice.

If you blast someone's opinions simply because they don't meet up with your definition of cruiser, you're the one in the wrong.

There's the key (I'm thinking civility would be a more accurate word). I don't mind a good discussion/debate/argument.. But once it's name calling, it's all over.

Look at politics for example. In the U.S. particularly, there's not a real discussion of issues, etc.. Just alot of name-calling. It's gotten to the point where just a simple shorthand label (like liberal/consertive/neocon/progressive... etc..) is a derogatory term. (and, of course, a single-word label cannot possibly express complex positions - possibly that's why the labeling process is so prevalent now)


As to quality of info, I think CF is pretty dang good. I lurked for a loooong time, so I have a pretty good idea of what's what and who's who. Like I find it quite amusing if somebody debates minaret about epoxy. Heck, I even managed to figgure out Zee's posts before.. whatever it is happened.

And folks can make positive contributions that aren't crossing oceans daily. But probably not about crossing oceans. I won't give advice about bluewater passages 'cause I don't have a clue. I 'cruise' to an island 32 miles away on a boat that shouldn't go any further than that. I read posts by folks that have or are crossing oceans and I learn quite a bit.

But I do know systems, so I'll comment on that kind of stuff. Or crack a joke or two, 'cause humor is good. I find sarcasm and satire absolutely a gas, but some folks don't. All works out until somebody has to throw in "you're wrong because you are a <insultofchoice>."

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by BandB

We don't disclose full information on line in a public forum for a couple of reasons. The primary one is that we do travel a lot and don't want the world to know our schedule or that we're 3000 miles from home today so it might be a good day to try a robbery. Also, we don't like to be targeted by salesmen, fund raisers, and various others. However, we've given plenty of people our names and our regular email addresses in private and established friendships starting there. As to disclosing it to a person who has just wished harm on my wife and kid (imaginary kid I guess as we have none although are very active with an orphanage so guess they count), then I don't care to share further information with them.

While the majority of people here are those we'd have no problem sharing more information with, there are a limited few who we would never trust with such information.

Above are reasons we did not "blog" our big sailing trip. Also, we did not want some unwelcome attention greeting us at the next port...

This was aside from a feeling that putting our trip out there in web land was a fairly egotistical endeavor. We only shared with family and friends and I wasn't all that convinced everyone welcomed the information. I know my mom was fired up about the emails though.

[robert sailor]

OK I’ll add more to my thoughts about tribes.
For as long as mankind has been on this earth we have formed tribes for a whole bunch of reasons from personal safety to sharing food/ideas. We have a capability today to instantly size people up by just looking at their body language and how they present themselves without even speaking to them. This has been with us for thousands of years as when we met someone on a back wood trail a few thousand years ago we needed to know instantly whether friend or foe.
We have big tribes; countries are big tribes as are religions. We have middle sized tribes like the rich and poor and we have smaller tribes like gays/straights and real little ones like mono hull sailors and multihull sailors or maybe cruisers and racers, LOL

Each of these groups feel better when they are with their own tribe and are less tolerant of others.
Americans and the Middle East countries don’t have a lot in common other than money. Christians and Muslims you might think had a lot in common but in fact don’t. Muslims have a couple of sub tribes that kill each other every day. Christians have themselves formed all sorts of different tribes and each is the only true way to salvation and from time to time they kill each other as well. Killing is of course the ultimate form of intolerance.
Our desire to be in a tribe goes right back in time and unfortunately has been used against us as a way to control behavior. I don’t see this ever changing.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

Above are reasons we did not "blog" our big sailing trip. Also, did we want some unwelcome attention greeting us at the next port...

This was aside from a feeling that putting our trip out there in web land was a fairly egotistical endeavor. We only shared with family and friends and I wasn't all that convinced everyone welcomed the information. I know my mom was fired up about the emails though.

If we ever shared trips in such a manner it would be much after the fact, more as is done in books than blogs. I agree on the concern about it being seen as egotistical or pretentious as well. Most people in the world don't have boats and I feel blessed that we do, but don't like pointing it out to them.

As to family (which our family isn't blood related, just family we've gathered by choice of both), they've asked us to give them updates and many join us sometimes, so we do provide them updates privately.

There are just a lot of areas of our lives we prefer to keep private to the world, open to family and close friends.

[sailorboy1]

I don't feel boaters on forums are any nicer that others. I do feel CF overall is not as helpful and friendly as it used to be, which is why I have changed my name twice now and don't have the name and real location of my boat listed anymore. I will even fully admit my tolerance of the same questions from people too lazy to do any research has gotten pretty low.

But it is the same everywhere on the internet. My wife is im human resources and you would think as a group they would have more tolerance. But based on their web page they are mostly all just flaming aholes

The easy way to deal with it is with your ignore list and just not reading threads
You are just going to piss you off

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by sabray

Your analysis of green house gas is flawed. But you know that right? Tolerance is okay. I guess. I really try to give opinion that has a real related experience. Sometimes I find that what I experienced and my conclusion is wrong. Like you are wrong about climate change. Which is opinion and only backed up by scientist that agree with me.
I can tolerate this wrong view you have. Giving unfounded emotional views and unsupported advice I frown upon.
I will tolerate your posts as you usually have good information.

Sebray honny, thanks for tolerating my wrong viewpoint and for your lovely example too. So I'm unsure, do you believe that climate change is man made or not. Just wondering, for your post gives no basis or fact supporting your claim that I am wrong.

I find many times that my ponderings are far outside the mainstream understanding. I've always danced to a beat of a different drum. It is quite possible my understanding of greenhouse gas interactions is incomplete and flawed.

That the climate is changing is not in question. I expect over the next 10-20 years scientists will find it is changing far faster then predicted in their studies/models. Myself I believe that we are well past the tipping point. Though mainly due to studies of arctic methane plumes both on Land and sea based. The methane releases in the arctic were not even considered in the original greenhouse gas studies. Here's a few links: Arctic Methane Emergency Group - AMEG - Arctic Sea Ice - Methane Release - Planetary Emergency
Arctic seafloor methane releases double previous estimates -- ScienceDaily

So now you know the basis of my unfounded emotional viewpoint.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

.. and real little ones like mono hull sailors and multihull sailors ...

Multihull sailors? Who said we were going to tolerate them? I think you go too far, sir!

[lifeofreilly57]

"There's the key (I'm thinking civility would be a more accurate word). I don't mind a good discussion/debate/argument.. But once it's name calling, it's all over." "Quote"

I agree on this point, disagreeing or pointing out a fatal flaw in someones reasoning is part of any normal discourse, once the name calling starts the person doing it loses all credibility and the thread tends to wander away.......
I leave politics and anything close to it out of the picture entirely.
As for greenhouse gasses, my sailing buddies let out huge quantities, usually after a few beers, then the real opinions come out!
I won't tell anyone how to cross an ocean but I can opine about dropping a keel or rebuilding a diesel, right now I'm rebuilding a waste holding system on my boat, talk about greenhouse gasses. Oiy.