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Old 10-04-2014, 17:44   #31
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Re: Tolerance

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
I'm sure there are many exceptions to my example Dan, but in general the closer people exist in a real community, the more civil that community tends to be. That's not to say there aren't truly insidious and ugly ways that people in small communities can act towards each other. But there tends to be a thicker veneer of civility.

It's often been noted that many of the bitter disputes we see play out here (anchors, guns, teak, fridge, keel, boat design...) almost never happens at the dock or in an anchorage. It's only the low-cost nature of online anonymity that allows these disputes to get started, and often turn ugly.
Yep you are correct, I do think smaller communities are more civil than urban areas which is why we moved to the country.

I was shocked when I started reading CF and saw that Anchors were such a hot button. It really made me laugh. Really? People are getting into huge FIGHTS over an ANCHOR? I did not know that the T word was a third rail topic too. I will never say Teak.... Oops!

To be frank, I was shocked/surprised at the level of intolerance on CF. I am used to seeing this on other sites but it surprised me on CF. My theory is that there are so many people from all around the world and that it is easy to push a button. I think my surprise is because I have been reading quite a few cruising blogs and the small town community that seems to exist in the cruising world is not so apparent on CF. CF is a bit more like an old, run down, bar at the port rather than a dock at the marina.

I really don't think being anonymous is the major/root cause for Internet rudeness. Now by anonymous, I mean you really do not know my real name and where I live. I do think Internet rudeness/intolerance/etc is because people are out of range of a right fist. The local website I refer too has some very rude people who have anonymous IDs but people know their identity. Some of the people who are diametrically opposed to each other have eaten dinner together and drank a few beers apparently without a fight. The rudeness seems to end when the right hand can connect with the left cheek. Somehow civility trumps intolerance when the fist is close at hand.

Course, we have some historical markers in town documenting events when the supporters of the King met community members who no longer liked said King. They seem to have reached a point were they no longer tolerated each others opinions. It was not about anchors though.

Certainly some people really like to say things to get people going and they depend on being anonymous to get away with their statements. On the other hand, I have known people who would say things to your face to get a reaction and some people are just flat out clueless about their own rudeness. I know one person who just does not have a clue about how rude his statement are. He simply is clueless. I know another person online who seems to be the same way. Both are not trying to be rude, but they are, and they are oblivious to their words. They really are clueless.

Later,
Dan
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Old 10-04-2014, 17:54   #32
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Re: Tolerance

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So, I'm in! I say we all ban together and quit putting up with the intolerant people. When it comes to the statements of all these people with uncompromising views, I say, "No More Tolerance!"
It's not uncompromising views that are the issue, it's the disrespect of others with conflicting views.
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Old 10-04-2014, 17:56   #33
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Re: Tolerance

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I live in Australia, but I am a Pommie. Which way that tips the scales I have no idea.

PS, I will ring you one night and talk softly to you if you like.

Coops.
Wifey B: And they still let you live there? Well, not quite the same accent.....can you fake it?
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Old 10-04-2014, 18:38   #34
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Re: Tolerance

I for one am always amazed that every thread on CF doesn't descend into a donnybrook. We have people from all around the world from every social economical level that for one reason or another, own a boat, want a boat, live on a boat, cruise a boat, hate boats, just like talking about boats or are selling a boat.

Add in anchors, guns, beer, etc and it can spiral down rather quickly.

I for one think intolerance has always been around. But with the instant communication and constant bombardment of right and left leaning news shows, It lends the appearance that intolerance is growing. I for one do not think it is. Intolerance has always been high.

I feel intolerance is due to in part from a poor education standards in the US and perhaps elsewhere. Of course, religious beliefs and intolerance of others beliefs can also be shown some culpability.

Myself, I try to respect everyone though at times I sometimes fail. I may not agree and I may not agree strongly, but that does not mean that someone else viewpoint is inherently wrong.
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Old 10-04-2014, 19:37   #35
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Re: Tolerance

Very interesting thread, and very timely. Thanks for starting it BandB.
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Old 10-04-2014, 19:43   #36
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Tolerance

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Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
I for one am always amazed that every thread on CF doesn't descend into a donnybrook. We have people from all around the world from every social economical level that for one reason or another, own a boat, want a boat, live on a boat, cruise a boat, hate boats, just like talking about boats or are selling a boat.



Add in anchors, guns, beer, etc and it can spiral down rather quickly.



I for one think intolerance has always been around. But with the instant communication and constant bombardment of right and left leaning news shows, It lends the appearance that intolerance is growing. I for one do not think it is. Intolerance has always been high.



I feel intolerance is due to in part from a poor education standards in the US and perhaps elsewhere. Of course, religious beliefs and intolerance of others beliefs can also be shown some culpability.



Myself, I try to respect everyone though at times I sometimes fail. I may not agree and I may not agree strongly, but that does not mean that someone else viewpoint is inherently wrong.

Now that is a perceptive post , even if I don't agree with it all. I think the word " intolerance " is being applied incorrectly here.

What typically happens is people with strongly held views ( and I include myself here) feel passionate about certain things. Then after a certain time , someone makes an adhomien attack ,then often it decends into a scrap.

Some people simply view robust debate ( while avoiding personal attacks ) as intolerant , personally I don't agree.

If it was all lovey duvvy it would t be that interesting

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Old 10-04-2014, 20:43   #37
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Re: Tolerance

I think the intolerant behavior you see on this forum is only partly due to anonymity and distance from the other guys fist or spittle. There is a faction on the internet who seem to think it's cute to be "snarky". Ms Dilloway's blog shows a picture of an attractive mixed blood woman advertising snark in bold type. Personally, I think being snarky is an example of the missing borders on behavior that Tomasz was mentioning. I don't think sarcasm is cute, it is a mean little bite, disguised as humor. YMMV

Ultimately, one is responsible for one's own behavior, so one can choose to not play that game.

Incidentally, as a side note, there is a fairly large portion of humanity who are unaware how their behavior affects others. They're wired up differently, and for them, even if it mattered to them, it is a difficult skill to learn. These people are usually bright, logical, attracted to careers that do not demand people skills. Am I describing internet junkies? No, not really, but because internet communication is not face to face, one's internet relationships are sort of fantasies, there is a lack of reality there, in that you don't receive the instant communication of horror and shock at something you said, and you don't, also, get to try to fix the situation. You get only delayed cues to modify your behavior.

Therefore, you, if you are thoughtful, have to decide how to present your internet persona. It may require a lot more self discipline to not gossip, or to not react in anger.

Part of the difficulty with CF in particular, is that the cruising community has within it sub-communities, and they have somewhat different "rules". Then you add in the ones who are committed to life and possessions ashore, and the world view is, again, different. Our various communities have all agreed to "be polite", but when treasured opinions are challenged or there are perceived threats to the ego, tempers flare, and undisciplined responses follow; then the mods get involved.

Atoll's demonstration of integrity, putting his money, time, and energy according to the accepted rules of the long term cruising community, and perhaps of his upbringing as well, is a laudable example. The values are more like small town values than big city values, as was remarked in a previous post. It's sort of "We help our neighbors; they help us" vs. "It's a dog eat dog world out there, everyone for himself!"

Most people give up on the putting onself up by putting others down some time between the age of 3 and 6. Others don't ever outgrow it. Lotsa folks out here, lots of differences and differences of opinion, as well. Some lacking the perspcective to understand that one's opinion is not one's self. Attacking my opinion isn't necessarily attacking me, which gives me room to ask someone to understand what lies behind a post.

Sorry for being so wordy.

Ann
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Old 10-04-2014, 20:56   #38
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Re: Tolerance

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Originally Posted by BandB View Post
It's not uncompromising views that are the issue, it's the disrespect of others with conflicting views.
Bravo.

Thanks for creating this thread, as it has brought up some excellent food for thought.
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Old 10-04-2014, 21:21   #39
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Re: Tolerance

Excellent thread topic.

I hope most on the RH thread will read it... Not everyone aboard CF shares the "group hug" mindset.
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Old 10-04-2014, 21:29   #40
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Re: Tolerance

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What typically happens is people with strongly held views (and I include myself here) feel passionate about certain things.

Dave
Jeepers Dave.... I had no idea?
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Old 10-04-2014, 21:45   #41
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Re: Tolerance

I'm sort of liberal, Gee I live in California, its practically required to be liberal to live here. While I believe man does contribute to greenhouse gas production, I am not sure that Man's influences are what is tipping the scale. Since man made greenhouse gas protection is a small fraction of total world wide greenhouse gas production. I do believe that the time to do something about greanhouse gas was about 40-50 years ago. Now its just way too late.

I expect quite a few folks in the northern states of the US, might vote for a bit more global warming after this last winter.

The whole liberal/conservative thing is just one area where there is a vast divide in the country.

Back before about 2000, you might find liberal and conservative politicians in DC going to the same party/ shindig. Now a days that just does not happen ever.

I do agree that too many folks point fingers at the opposite side and say they are so unreasonable. Even in subjects I concur with, there is too much radicalism and not clear thought and adjective reasoning. Too much all or nothing. Compromise is not even a consideration now a days. At any level. We as a group, considering the widely diverse group that we are, actually do ok. for the most part.
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Old 10-04-2014, 22:19   #42
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Re: Tolerance

Letsgetsailing3 took the first word that came to mind when I read your post BandB.

I feel it's worth repeating...Bravo
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Old 10-04-2014, 22:23   #43
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Re: Tolerance

To put some perspective on CF and intolerance, one only needs to spend an hour or two on Sailing Anarchy...

I actually feel that CF is pretty civil overall. There are a few consistently abusive and abrasive posters, but one soon learns to ignore them rather than reply in kind (this has been a bit hard for me at times, but I try!). On balance, the good far outweighs the bad here, and while I cringe when reading some posts, I seem to keep coming back.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 10-04-2014, 22:45   #44
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Re: Tolerance

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Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
I'm sort of liberal, Gee I live in California, its practically required to be liberal to live here. While I believe man does contribute to greenhouse gas production, I am not sure that Man's influences are what is tipping the scale. Since man made greenhouse gas protection is a small fraction of total world wide greenhouse gas production. I do believe that the time to do something about greanhouse gas was about 40-50 years ago. Now its just way too late.



I expect quite a few folks in the northern states of the US, might vote for a bit more global warming after this last winter.



The whole liberal/conservative thing is just one area where there is a vast divide in the country.



Back before about 2000, you might find liberal and conservative politicians in DC going to the same party/ shindig. Now a days that just does not happen ever.



I do agree that too many folks point fingers at the opposite side and say they are so unreasonable. Even in subjects I concur with, there is too much radicalism and not clear thought and adjective reasoning. Too much all or nothing. Compromise is not even a consideration now a days. At any level. We as a group, considering the widely diverse group that we are, actually do ok. for the most part.

Your analysis of green house gas is flawed. But you know that right? Tolerance is okay. I guess. I really try to give opinion that has a real related experience. Sometimes I find that what I experienced and my conclusion is wrong. Like you are wrong about climate change. Which is opinion and only backed up by scientist that agree with me.
I can tolerate this wrong view you have. Giving unfounded emotional views and unsupported advice I frown upon.
I will tolerate your posts as you usually have good information.


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Old 10-04-2014, 23:15   #45
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Re: Tolerance

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To put some perspective on CF and intolerance, one only needs to spend an hour or two on Sailing Anarchy...

I actually feel that CF is pretty civil overall. There are a few consistently abusive and abrasive posters, but one soon learns to ignore them rather than reply in kind (this has been a bit hard for me at times, but I try!). On balance, the good far outweighs the bad here, and while I cringe when reading some posts, I seem to keep coming back.

Cheers,

Jim
I don't think the fact someone else is worse makes things right. By comparison Trawler Forum and Yacht Forums are quite civil and well behaved. I've participated in many other forums over the years so do have perspective.

Is there some feeling on the part of sailors that they are misunderstood and mistreated? There just seems to be an inordinate amount of anger against opposing views, anger against establishment, anger against countries, anger against rules and laws. I'm truly trying to understand. As an example the venom directed recently over ads astonished me. I'm not used to seeing an attack posted on a forum against the forum as those were.

I'll toss out one other question in that regard. There seems to be some belief by many here that if you don't sail you're not a cruiser and by others that if you don't sail full time and/or live aboard you're not a true cruiser. It's almost like if you don't forsake all the things most people have or the type lives others lead then you don't really belong.
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