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Old 19-04-2014, 19:57   #211
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Re: Tolerance

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Doubt real name or Boatman61 affects my posts... when I've had a few and wanna be rude.. I am...
Any Mod will verify that
Yep.

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Old 20-04-2014, 03:47   #212
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Re: Tolerance

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As far as growing up in an environment that develops thick skin, bonding through sarcasm and creative insults, try NJ.

Gadagirl you aren't kidding on the NJ thing. They think I'm too polite and quiet when I'm just trying to stay out of the cross hairs.

On the tolerance thing my two nickels:

- Some perceived intolerance may be overexposure. For example Saturday is the one day I sleep in. The local church that sends folks on bicycles door to door visited me 5 weeks in a row before I've had coffee all showed up between 8-8:15 banging on the door. (True story!) On the 5th day I lose my cool. Am I intolerant at that point from my perspective when I've asked to be taken off the visitation list 4 times already? To me no but to that 5th set of folks I bet they sure thought so.

- I believe the large demographic is male. Generally speaking men are more aggressive and stand their ground. (Women do this too but usually not as bluntly and often in a more passive aggressive manner which is equally annoying.)

- There is a wide variety of skills here from old salt to dreamers.

- as previously mentioned it has become a very me, me, me world.

- Society (IMO) has accepted a lot more snarky behavior than I prefer and when translated to a forum a lot of context is lost and it comes off just nasty.

- We have sailors from all over the world with differing accepted societal norms. For example many Dutch people seem extremely blunt from my viewpoint. My Dutch relatives helped form this opinion. They think I take too long to make a point. Are either of us right? Depends on who you ask.

It seems anymore on this forum if an opinion differs between generic X and Y user some invisible gauntlet is thrown. My opinion is what you've paid for it. I'm open to discuss my reasons for said opinion civilly but I tune out when it gets heated. Most people are dug in and you have little to no hope of convincing them of anything. This is tough even when people are calm.

Where I get puzzled is when it seems at times folks on CF believe there is only one answer to most questions or problems when it comes to anything outside of mathematic equations?! Yes there are some right/wrong situations but more often than not there are many avenues to a goal.

Newt was right this was a great read for an insomniac.

SC
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Old 20-04-2014, 09:59   #213
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Re: Tolerance

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
I don't think the second claim follows neatly from the first.

It would be nice if we could invert the proposition:

1) “using your real name = polite posts” to

2) “using an alias = rude posts”

and then refute 1) by contradicting 2), with the observation that

3) “Here we have aliases and yet we don’t have rude posts”



But if the rules of logic permitted that, they would also permit refuting the proposition “Condoms prevent babies” by observing, with hands on hips, that “We've not used condoms, and yet we have no babies”

(via the unstated inversion: “No condoms = babies”)

In both cases, we’re leaving something unsaid, in the original proposition.
We’re not saying “Real names are the ONLY THING stopping nasty posts”, just as we can’t say “Condoms are the ONLY THING preventing babies”

And it seems to me a couple of Other Things stopping (most) nasty posts here, are the cultural norms on the forum, plus (and I would say, partly in consequence of) the moderators and the policies they operate.

So I don’t think this forum is a useful place to test either proposition 1), or 2)

(let alone propositions about condoms and babies!)

You're right about the logic, I got sloppy.

I think that no matter what excuse anyone uses for their rude behavior, all it takes is to set the standard via moderation and then people either toe the line or they leave, feeling stifled. So far, I've had 3 posts deleted and 1 edited, and I'm thankful because I'm new here and still learning the boundaries. So far, I haven't made the same mistake twice, only the different things that aren't allowed. I'm grateful for the way they handled it, a nice PM with a good explanation of what was wrong.
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Old 20-04-2014, 11:41   #214
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Re: Tolerance

I agree using your own name may cause some folks to be slightly more responsible in their posts--but believe some people are just aggressive by nature. I just judge the quality of posts as written and do not base that judgement on the poster's name, location, number of posts, size of boat, etc. I do of course start recognizing posters whose posts are logical, experienced & well presented, and those whose posts are less so.

I do not and will not post under my own name for security reasons, many of which have been mentioned earlier. I see no reason to make it easy for an unscrupulous person to identify me (although with little effort it could be done) because I don't believe all unscrupulous persons are smart & tech savvy. I'm not even too concerned about persons on this forum. My greater concern is someone who has obtained a piece of my identity & is attempting to build a more complete profile for criminal purposes. Further, I spent long enough in law enforcement not to put my name & address in the phone book--I'm not about to advertise it here on the web.

Lastly, I post in the same manner whether I use my own name or a screen name. You get what you get. If we were discussing this in person you'd get the same story although likely not as well structured as when I type it out & then proof it before hitting submit.
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Old 20-04-2014, 11:47   #215
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Re: Tolerance

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Originally Posted by sailcruiser View Post
Where I get puzzled is when it seems at times folks on CF believe there is only one answer to most questions or problems when it comes to anything outside of mathematic equations?! Yes there are some right/wrong situations but more often than not there are many avenues to a goal.

Newt was right this was a great read for an insomniac.

SC
While I'm always one to admit that there are many ways to skin a cat, I'm still of the opinion that a very sharp knife is still a lot cleaner and more practical than dynamite. While there are always those who will maintain that dynamite does in fact remove the skin from a feline, it's not the most elegant solution.
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Old 20-04-2014, 12:42   #216
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Re: Tolerance

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Originally Posted by BandB View Post
Probably tolerance wasn't the best word. Tolerance of the rights and opinions of others was what I wished to address but the real words more easily understood perhaps should have been personal attacks, meanness, rudeness, demeaning other members.

I personally have lots of hair and lots of tolerance of the views of others. However, my tolerance of personal attacks, meanness, rudeness, demeaning and putting down others, and name calling is not as high. I don't like hurtful things being said to others in person or online.

There are other things in the world I don't have tolerance for such as murder, crime, bigotry, and abuse. So I didn't universally mean tolerance, but rather tolerance for the rights and opinions of others as exhibited through treating them with respect.
Politeness is the word I would go for. That is what is often missing. Tolerance and respect are two of many attributes of politeness.

I am very much in agreement that there is no place for impoliteness, rudeness and intolerance and I will not read rude posts. It spoils a good read and I hope the moderators continue to delete them. They could go a bit further in my view.

I also hate political correctness and pandering diplomacy, which are politeness gone too far the other way. Balance and proportion in everything as mother wisely used to say.
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Old 20-04-2014, 15:40   #217
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Re: Tolerance

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Originally Posted by poiu View Post
Politeness is the word I would go for. That is what is often missing. Tolerance and respect are two of many attributes of politeness.

I am very much in agreement that there is no place for impoliteness, rudeness and intolerance and I will not read rude posts. It spoils a good read and I hope the moderators continue to delete them. They could go a bit further in my view.

I also hate political correctness and pandering diplomacy, which are politeness gone too far the other way. Balance and proportion in everything as mother wisely used to say.
^^^^ I have to agree with this. In the absence of sympathy, or empathy, simple politeness will do just all right.

And as others have mentioned, technical subjects are often easier to handle with objectivity.

Ann
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Old 21-04-2014, 14:39   #218
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Re: a particular "Flavour" of intolerance

I have no interest in commenting on the Rebel Heart situation. Partly this is because the circumstances are not known, and may never be knowable, to me.

But I think there’s a more important reason I don’t feel inclined to pass judgement: there’s a certain type of intolerance common in sailors, a tendency to dismiss, out of hand, things done in a way which don’t appeal to them personally.

In situations they’ve personally encountered, this generally means: not the way they’ve learned, or developed, or become accustomed to.
I used to think it came from the unforgiving nature of the ocean environment, but it’s certainly not restricted to sailors.

And it seems to me that not all sailors have it: some very good ones do, and some very good ones don’t.

So here’s a couple of questions:

To what extent is this an asset vs a liability, to a deepwater sailor?

How prevalent is it, in the community, in the sailing community, and in THIS community?
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Old 21-04-2014, 14:58   #219
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Re: Tolerance

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there’s a certain type of intolerance common in sailors, a tendency to dismiss, out of hand, things done in a way which don’t appeal to them personally.

In situations they’ve personally encountered, this generally means: not the way they’ve learned, or developed, or become accustomed to.
I used to think it came from the unforgiving nature of the ocean environment, but it’s certainly not restricted to sailors.
I think pilots are even worse. Certainly one forum I follow makes CF look kind. I've often thought pilots and sailors had a lot in common though, and often meet sailors who fly & vice versa. Both operate in environments without much forgiveness.

Your questions about whether it stands them to good stead or not are interesting though. Some of the loudest, most opinionated pilots I know are often pretty good stick & rudder guys so you may be on to something. On the other hand, they're often the risk takers, so perhaps their experiences have made them that way.
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Old 21-04-2014, 15:13   #220
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Re: a particular "Flavour" of intolerance

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I have no interest in commenting on the Rebel Heart situation. Partly this is because the circumstances are not known, and may never be knowable, to me.

But I think there’s a more important reason I don’t feel inclined to pass judgement: there’s a certain type of intolerance common in sailors, a tendency to dismiss, out of hand, things done in a way which don’t appeal to them personally.

In situations they’ve personally encountered, this generally means: not the way they’ve learned, or developed, or become accustomed to.
I used to think it came from the unforgiving nature of the ocean environment, but it’s certainly not restricted to sailors.

And it seems to me that not all sailors have it: some very good ones do, and some very good ones don’t.

So here’s a couple of questions:

To what extent is this an asset vs a liability, to a deepwater sailor?

How prevalent is it, in the community, in the sailing community, and in THIS community?
Sometimes there's a very fine line just in how you word something and people miss the subtle difference. If one says, "I wouldn't personally" they aren't condemning those who would. If they say, "You're crazy to" then they're being rude.

Before I had ever heard of RH, I said I wouldn't personally take an infant on a long cruise. (And for the record that isn't limited to sailing, wouldn't take one with me on an African Safari or for six months in the Amazon. But I was equally against attacks on RH for doing so as parents make their own choices. And just because they don't work out sometimes does not mean they made a bad choice. Good choices blow up on us all as well. I get reminded every time I choose a grocery line and the lady in front of me takes forever.


As to sailor community, as a non sailor this is the only one I've been to. I think there are many here who would greatly prefer this being sail only and do think some of them look down on power boaters. I certainly respect sailboaters. They are willing to do a lot more work boating than I am.
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Old 21-04-2014, 15:14   #221
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Re: Tolerance

I agree with others, it has more to do with being polite.
In a previous post I said some things that weren't neccesarily rude but were taken that way and some people responded in a much more rude way.
My post was only meant to get people to think about the forementioned tolerance and how much one should tolerate.
I'm not going to mention some of the responses that were deleted along with my post, but at least one could be called a "dilloway" by some people....

I realize that calling people a "dilloway" could be considered rude so I am not going to use that name anymore.
As for as RH....I have never ever said anything bad about him or his family...as a matter of fact I have defended his actions where I live from people who have been talking about his rescue.

As for being polite?
Some people will think polite is one thing, but yet there are people who think it is totally different.
Unfortunately there is no line drawn in the sand....
Sometimes you just need to tolerate the people you think are rude. Up to a point....but, what is that point? Where is that line?
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Old 21-04-2014, 15:33   #222
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Re: Tolerance

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I think pilots are even worse. Certainly one forum I follow makes CF look kind. I've often thought pilots and sailors had a lot in common though, and often meet sailors who fly & vice versa. Both operate in environments without much forgiveness.

Your questions about whether it stands them to good stead or not are interesting though. Some of the loudest, most opinionated pilots I know are often pretty good stick & rudder guys so you may be on to something. On the other hand, they're often the risk takers, so perhaps their experiences have made them that way.
Without getting bogged down in details, yes, I have seen a direct correlation between experience, especially at the hairy edge, and strong opinions and a lot of confidence. I don't know about loud, that may be just a personality trait, but definitely opinionated and confident.
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Old 21-04-2014, 16:25   #223
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Re: Tolerance

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Wish I could remember this more often
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Old 21-04-2014, 16:27   #224
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Re: Tolerance

Tolerance is a LOT easier when you put people and threads on your ignore list
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Old 21-04-2014, 17:09   #225
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Re: Tolerance

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Wish I could remember this more often
I am so stealing this!
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