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Old 25-02-2012, 11:35   #46
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

It can't be quid-pro-quo by prearrangement. If I tell you, "I'll take you out fishing if you fill up my tank," that's a charter and you need to be licensed. If I take you fishing and we stop at the fuel dock at the end of the run, and then you spontaneously pick up the tab, that's okay, as long as I'm not profiting from the arrangement. Obviously, if we fish for two hours and then you fill up my 2,500 tanks, I'm making a profit on the venture.
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Old 25-02-2012, 11:52   #47
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

I've assisted in a couple deliveries where the owner had hired a professional captain but needed someone to stand/lead the third watch. In each case the owner was a competent sailor and a friend--I never get involved in situations where the owner isn't comfortable handling his own boat. In each of these two trips, the owner paid my air fare to the boat, and I had been previously acquainted with the captain.

If it's a race I would expect to pay my own airfare home. For example, if I crewed for you on the Transpac, I would expect to pay for my own return ticket because I'm not a pro racer. However, I would never agree to assist with a delivery if it was going to cost me any money whatsoever. It makes no sense for me to pay to do you a favor. So if you were going to ask me to come to Hawaii to help you bring your boat home after a race, that's probably gonna cost you for a first-class, one-way ticket to the islands.
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Old 25-02-2012, 13:14   #48
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

+1, Bash... filling the tank without a request is pretty much what friends do but you don't dump 2000 gallons in for day on the water... Capt Phil
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Old 25-02-2012, 17:48   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash
It makes no sense for me to pay to do you a favor. So if you were going to ask me to come to Hawaii to help you bring your boat home after a race, that's probably gonna cost you for a first-class, one-way ticket to the islands.
I'll fly economy... And that is the free market...

In regards to fuel read the reg again. This verbiage is almost identical to flying, which arguably is tighter controlled.

In both cases one can receive a donation of fuel. This was important when I flew SAR. I donate my time and plane and in exchange I can receive fuel for the missions without a commercial ticket. We also did charitable stuff and airshows where fuel donations were OK.

I think it is good that it is a bit ambiguous. The key statement is that one receives no "benefit" - one can pretty much tell if they are beneffiting.

In regards to advertising, that happens all the time. "Looking for crew from X to Y. Shared expenses."

At the end of the day, it shouldn't look commercial and you may be asked to pull records if you got on someone's radar...
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Old 04-03-2012, 09:29   #50
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Re: To pay or not to pay....crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Cruiser View Post
ughmo2000,
Confused by that statement.
If you look at the prev posts in this thread from #1 onwards this is the first post of yours to appear. Did you have a prev post that you are referring too that perhaps was deleted by the mods for the way you were calling out the op?? ?

I apologize for the confusion! I had responded to another post, I thought this was a continuation of that post...

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...4-a-76958.html


The above 3 points from your post are taken & logically made though not all would agree. IMHO
Agreed! I just believe it wrong for a professional delivery captain to not only get paid by the owner, but to ask his crew to pay all their own expenses as well.
In essence, "double-dipping".
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:18   #51
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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay ... Crew

Cliff, let's suppose you are that professional captain, paid $10,000 by the owners. And you're twin brother lands an identical deal.

Since you're a great guy, you hire on four crew at $1500 each for the trip, keeping $4000 for youself.

Your brother hires on four crew at $500 each, and keeps $8000 for himself.

Is that any different from double-dipping? He's being paid the same thing by the owners, but he's keeping more than you are. His crew just didn't know how to negotiate as well as yours did. Or maybe, he's just not as generous.

Doesn't matter. Single-dip, double-dip, it is all the same zero-sum game.

If you take lots of pictures and then sell the story of your delivery to National Geographic (hey, the sailing mags just don't pay) for another $2500...are you double-dipping? Should you give it back to the owners?

If one of your brother's crew uses his sea miles to qualify for his captain's license and then gets hired by someone else, should be rebate you, or them, or someone, because now his sea miles have literally PAID OFF for him?

Its all relative.
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:27   #52
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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay ... Crew

#1 what C E said in post #35
Last year my son had a few friends that flew in from Toronto and wanted to go Salmon fishing out in Coal Harbor here in Vancouver. They said they wanted to pay for all costs, I took them fishing no charge because my boat insurance clearly states that is not for hire. But what I did do was have my son ask them to make a donation to the MS Society on behalf of my wife which they did and everybody was happy.
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:01   #53
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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay ... Crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Cliff, let's suppose you are that professional captain, paid $10,000 by the owners. And you're twin brother lands an identical deal.

Since you're a great guy, you hire on four crew at $1500 each for the trip, keeping $4000 for youself.

Your brother hires on four crew at $500 each, and keeps $8000 for himself.
My brother is a rather bad comparison, he is a thief.

Regardless, when I submit a bid I include my crew's airfare to/from, provisions, and 125usd per crew/day each. If it's a longer passage I'll negotiate a bit on the entire package but that's basically it. I'll submit CV's and references. If it's not up to someone's expectations I'll wish them well.

My crew gets just as wet, cold, and tired as anyone. I don't believe in telling owners I'm using experienced crew then advertising for unknown crew expecting them to pay me as well.

Or if they are known to me, screwing my buddies to line my own pocket.
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:07   #54
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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay ... Crew

I'm not talking about deceiving the owner or screwing your buddies. Since you're not lining your own pocket, you're obviously going to pay each of your crew an equal share of the money, same as you get? Or do you get how many extra shares for being the organizer?
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:03   #55
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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay ... Crew

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
I'm not talking about deceiving the owner or screwing your buddies. Since you're not lining your own pocket, you're obviously going to pay each of your crew an equal share of the money, same as you get? Or do you get how many extra shares for being the organizer?

If your making eight thousand and paying your crew 1500, Yes. I'd say that's taking advantage.

I sail with a small group of friends with whom I've sailed before.
I know them, their capabilities, and how they treat other's boats.

Whatever the bid, I do share it equally among my crew. My crew also gets paid before I do.

If you advertised for co-drivers to drive across country, would you expect co-drivers to buy gasoline, oil, and tires? Or as someone else mentioned, "Is a trucking company going to drive a thousand miles delivering your boat for the love of driving?". Do you pay your boss every Friday to do your job?

Disregarding the legal issue, or even if I'm building miles for a ticket, why should I pay someone I don't know to move their boat where they want it?
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:40   #56
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Re: To pay or not to pay....crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
Agreed! I just believe it wrong for a professional delivery captain to not only get paid by the owner, but to ask his crew to pay all their own expenses as well.
In essence, "double-dipping".
Appreciate where you are coming from - and it clearly works for you .....so no criticism meant by the following.

But just to day, that if I (as an Owner) are quoted $10,000 to deliver with crew expenses included, or $6,000 with crew paying own "expenses" - then I would not care if the Skipper makes more on the deal from bringing onboard crew wanting "mile builders".....and the advantage to me is that a Skipper is motivated to crew fully (both for the add cash in his pocket - and to cover the likelihood that some crew will be numpties).

The key for me, as an Owner, (apart from being satisfied that the Skipper is up to the task) is knowing in advance how my boat will be operated, the only number I am concerned about is the total coming out of my pocket. The Skipper's figures would be of interest to me, but that is just becoz i iz nozey .


Why would a "mile builder" pay?.........to get miles? , experiance and a cheap (working) holiday on a boat that was leaving when wanted and to somewhere acceptable - and with a Skipper who was experianced at both sailing and running crew who may (or may not) be perfect..........the cheaper option is pot luck - nothing wrong with that, could be better. could be worse. As they say, yer pays yer money......
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Old 04-03-2012, 19:20   #57
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Re: To Pay or Not to Pay ... Crew

Do what you think is right.

But your boat with the pro and two novice crew is only being professionally crewed one third of the time.
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