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Old 23-02-2012, 12:08   #31
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

In the used car business they say "There's an ass for every seat."

Given a choice between making a week long solo crossing (nope, gotta sleep) and having three buddies come down to help...or hiring a delivery crew...or telling my friends I'd pay their airfares...

You've got all sorts of choices. All kinds of asses to fit all kinds of seats. I don't see any 'right' or 'wrong' as long as you are upfront about what will be expected and done.

If yu're looking to HIRE HELP without paying for it, there's another maxim for that. You pay peanuts, you get squirrels. Or is that monkeys?
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Old 23-02-2012, 12:36   #32
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

I have read this and other threads revolving around paying / unpaid crew, with interest. I have done a few deliveries, mostly I run vessels for a living. For me, it depends on the situation and circumstances. If I am doing professional delivery then I get paid, door step to door step, and all expenses covered. If I am helping a friend bring his boat up from Kodiak Island to Homer, then keep me fed on the trip and buy me dinner when we get in and its a wash. If I don't know you and you want to use my professional services then it costs. Like what was previously posted, all the details need to be hammered out prior to leaving port. Paid / unpaid crew depends too. If I am doing a straight runner across the gulf of Alaska, I would expect to pay my crew a day rate, D.O.E. and my need. If I am taking them on a commercial fishing trip then it is a percentage of the catch D.O.E. obviously the more experienced and more helpful get paid more. Usually as long as everyone knows up front going in what the deal is, there are rarely any disputes. Getting it in writing does eliminate a lot of quibbling later.
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Old 23-02-2012, 17:13   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badsanta
Please correct me if I am wrong, But I was always under the impression that here in the states, If the captain of the boat received any compensation that captain had to be duly certified as a captain as a 6 pack or above.
If you are just an owner and call yourself a captain you cannot take on paying passengers and that is what you are doing if you except fuel, food or money for same. I know people do otherwise but there are legal ramifications.
Sharing expenses is legal.

Food, fuel and perhaps in-transit mooring expenses are legit.

Boat mortgage, insurances etc. are over the line.
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Old 23-02-2012, 17:22   #34
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

I believe you are correct, Badsanta. Friends can pay for fuel, food, etc but paying the skipper requires he/she be licensed as far as I know. Capt Phil
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Old 24-02-2012, 21:40   #35
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

I have always understood that if the owner receives ANYTHING it is a charter.
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Old 24-02-2012, 22:31   #36
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

Owners, payment, and charters?

Hmmm, if owner receives payment for use of the boat, and relinquishes all control to the charterer, then THAT's a charter. A charter could be a small cruising boat -- or a mega tanker.

If owner receives payment and stays aboard and in control, that's passage for hire, unless it is very strictly voluntary sharing of actual expenses.

Another permutation is owner remaining aboard but paying a licensed mariner.
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Old 24-02-2012, 23:26   #37
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Engineer View Post
I have always understood that if the owner receives ANYTHING it is a charter.
Here in Australia both maritime and taxation law have the pre-amble "if for reward or gain". Dead simple hard to argue with!
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Old 24-02-2012, 23:39   #38
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

My dumb mistake; I was thinking of bareboat charters only.
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Old 24-02-2012, 23:59   #39
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

this explanation is from boatsafe.com
Do You Need a Captain's License?

And what is a passenger for hire?
We have received several emails asking about the necessity of having a captain's license. One such email described a situation that follows:
"A friend of mine was boarded by the Marine Police and the Coast Guard while fishing on the Chesapeake Bay. Since he had friends on board they separated the people and asked them if they were paying him to take them out. Of course they were not, they were just friends on a fishing trip. What troubled me, and of course him, was the fact that he was told by the Coast Guard that if you share the cost of the fuel that is considered a charter. Heck, most of us that fish all the time together share in the cost of the fishing with one another. Is this statement made by the Coast Guard true and could he have been fined for not having a captain's license if his friends decided to help pay for some of his fuel costs? What regulations cover these sorts of rules, for if this is true a lot of us are in trouble."
In years past there was some confusion as to what was specifically meant by 'passenger for hire.' However, that has now been clearly defined by the clarification of the rules below.
SEC. 506. PASSENGER FOR HIRE.
Section 2101 of title 46, United States Code, is amended by inserting between paragraphs (21) and (22) a new paragraph (21a) to read as follows:
"(21a) 'passenger for hire' means a passenger for whom consideration is contributed as a condition of carriage on the vessel, whether directly or indirectly flowing to the owner, charterer, operator, agent, or any other person having an interest in the vessel.."
DESCRIPTION - The determination of what constitutes the carriage of a "passenger for hire" must be made on a case by case basis. This determination is dependent upon the actual operation of a vessel and the flow of consideration as determined by the facts of each case. In general, there needs to be some form of tangible consideration or promise of performance being passed for a "passenger for hire" situation to exist.
SEC. 507. CONSIDERATION.
Section 2101 of title 46, United States Code, is amended by inserting between paragraphs (5) and (6) a new paragraph (5a) to read as follows:
"(5a) 'consideration' means an economic benefit, inducement, right, or profit including pecuniary payment accruing to an individual, person, or entity, but not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies." Additionally, employees or business clients that have not contributed for their carriage, and are carried for morale or entertainment purposes, are not considered as an exchange of consideration.
Bottom line: if you are a recreational boater, you are allowed to share expenses for a day on the water. Just don't make payment mandatory if someone wants a boat ride.


I am still confused.
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Old 25-02-2012, 00:14   #40
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

Quote:
Originally Posted by Badsanta View Post
this explanation is from boatsafe.com
Do You Need a Captain's License?

And what is a passenger for hire?
We have received several emails asking about the necessity of having a captain's license. One such email described a situation that follows:
"A friend of mine was boarded by the Marine Police and the Coast Guard while fishing on the Chesapeake Bay. Since he had friends on board they separated the people and asked them if they were paying him to take them out. Of course they were not, they were just friends on a fishing trip. What troubled me, and of course him, was the fact that he was told by the Coast Guard that if you share the cost of the fuel that is considered a charter. Heck, most of us that fish all the time together share in the cost of the fishing with one another. Is this statement made by the Coast Guard true and could he have been fined for not having a captain's license if his friends decided to help pay for some of his fuel costs? What regulations cover these sorts of rules, for if this is true a lot of us are in trouble."
In years past there was some confusion as to what was specifically meant by 'passenger for hire.' However, that has now been clearly defined by the clarification of the rules below.
SEC. 506. PASSENGER FOR HIRE.
Section 2101 of title 46, United States Code, is amended by inserting between paragraphs (21) and (22) a new paragraph (21a) to read as follows:
"(21a) 'passenger for hire' means a passenger for whom consideration is contributed as a condition of carriage on the vessel, whether directly or indirectly flowing to the owner, charterer, operator, agent, or any other person having an interest in the vessel.."
DESCRIPTION - The determination of what constitutes the carriage of a "passenger for hire" must be made on a case by case basis. This determination is dependent upon the actual operation of a vessel and the flow of consideration as determined by the facts of each case. In general, there needs to be some form of tangible consideration or promise of performance being passed for a "passenger for hire" situation to exist.
SEC. 507. CONSIDERATION.
Section 2101 of title 46, United States Code, is amended by inserting between paragraphs (5) and (6) a new paragraph (5a) to read as follows:
"(5a) 'consideration' means an economic benefit, inducement, right, or profit including pecuniary payment accruing to an individual, person, or entity, but not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies." Additionally, employees or business clients that have not contributed for their carriage, and are carried for morale or entertainment purposes, are not considered as an exchange of consideration.
Bottom line: if you are a recreational boater, you are allowed to share expenses for a day on the water. Just don't make payment mandatory if someone wants a boat ride.


I am still confused.
Additionally, employees or business clients that have not contributed for their carriage, and are carried for morale or entertainment purposes, are not considered as an exchange of consideration.

I believe here in Australia this would constitute as a commercial enterprise and you would need to use a commercial vessel and crew. The "gain" here would be the promotion of the business......

Recreation wise we can share costs same as you've pointed out.

It's all well and good when everything goes well but if an incident occurs and the dreaded lawyers do their craft it goes pear shaped very fast.
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Old 25-02-2012, 06:39   #41
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

Obviously where you are in the world impacts on how likely it is that any theory turns into a problem in practice. IMO those places without a 24/7 armed Poop Patrol probably have less risk.

and then the nature of the crew (freinds / family or unknowns) and how much (and how) they are chipping into the pot.

Personally I would feel comfortable pretty much anywhere taking a fixed (per day) figure off crew / passengers simply to avoid counting (and writing cheques for? ) every last baked bean ......if that means that it accidently generates a surplus, then I see no harm if that goes into the Boat Beer Fund / a last night meal ashore or divided up at the end of the trip (albeit that latter one more, for me, about the theory to keep officialdom happy - rather than the practice ). If that means can't chip in for the fuel, then so be it - just provide for extra baked beans .

Obviously the problems more likely to arise when the "expenses" figure is high (or perceived to be), but IMO plenty of scope for those wanting beer money+.....even at the risk of entering a grey area.

When doing anything with a potential downside, always good to plan ahead for if the risk crystalizes onto the fan . Especially when "Da Man" is involved. Not everything you can shoot ya way out of.
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Old 25-02-2012, 08:34   #42
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

One must be careful how he avertises for"GUESTS", Ive seen ads on line at a Sportsmans site, looking for folks to SHARE expenses of offshore fishing trips ! The USCG and the states fish and game frown on this ! as this they say changes things to a Comm venture ! Just be careful what you say where folks can see LOL just a thought Bob and Connie
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Old 25-02-2012, 10:56   #43
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

"I have always understood that if the owner receives ANYTHING it is a charter. "

That was changed around 1990 in the US. We had a friend who would take out fellow dive club members, as friends, for casual diving once in a while. Just a few of us and we'd offer to pay his gas and bring lunch. Because of the regs, he wouldn't take ANYthing until after we had docked and unloaded, and at that point it was only an exchange of beer and someone else (not him) fueling the boat.

Couple of years later there was some ruckus about the same problem in the news and the rules were formally changed. Key points now being that it is VOLUNTARY and not commercial in any way.

The big museums also got in trouble over a similar point around the same time, 1980's. They went from "free" admission to "suggested donation" and most of them got aggressive about "no donation, no entry". The courts ended that real fast, a donation is VOLUNTARY and if you don't want to give it, you don't have to give it. If someone says you've GOT TO ante up, then it isn't voluntary it is commercial and the whole basis changes. (In the case of the museums, that change would cut off their funding as "free" public institutions.)

Advertising? As they say, "Tell it to the judge." Sure sounds commercial to me.
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Old 25-02-2012, 11:08   #44
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

Very good point, bobconnie... I never advertised to take folks out on my personal vessel which we lived aboard full time but on many occasions took friends out for the day or a few overnighters. I never asked my guests to contribute to the cost of the passage but can't remember an instance where they did not contribute either food or drink. When we pulled up to the fuel dock it was rare that they didn't beat me to the draw to pay for the fuel but I never asked for a contribution. Only once was I boarded on a day out with friends by the USCG and they asked me whether or not it was a charter. When I told them no, just friends out for a day on the water, they did ask one of my guests if he was paying me and when he denied that he was, the comment after completing the safety check was, "you all have a great day". Courteous, friendly but businesslike.
I believe a lot of the response you get from the 'coasties' depends upon the attitude and apparent evidence they see when they board you. I've known several of these fine men and women personally and they are not out to hassle anyone but interpret the law as they understand it even handedly and fairly. From what I understand, the search parameters are decided upon before they ever leave their cutter. Their major interest in SoCal used to be looking for drugs and illegals. If you were friendly, quick in your responses to their questions and hospitable, their stay aboard was short without any hassles.
They always wanted to see ships papers, my license and tour the heads and engine room. Other than that, it was pretty much a non-issue. They never spent more than 15 minutes aboard. These are just my personal experiences and not representative of State Fish and Game or other government agencies overseeing coastal waters.
Driving other boats for the owners or on deliveries, the boarding process was a little more involved particularly as it related to crew documentation, searches for drugs and owner and insurance documents as well as my license and Letters of Permission. The only issue I ever had was them attempting to board a delivery in what I considered unsafe safe sea conditions. After consultation with their skipper aboard the cutter, they stood off until we could get in to a sheltered area behind one of the Channel Islands then they used a smaller RIB to board us. At all times they were courteous and businesslike. I personally, think these men and women do a tough job under difficult circumstances and deserve our respect and thanks. Capt Phil
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Old 25-02-2012, 11:20   #45
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

To me it is pretty simple: pay the crew when you need crew, the crew to pay when they want a ride. Otherwise use local force / friend sailors and discuss the share BEFOREHAND.

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