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Old 22-02-2012, 12:05   #16
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Re: To pay or not to pay....crew

Skipper / Owner needs crew then he pays (either in cash or by taking what he can get, if any).

In practice that may mean the crew chip in for expenses (or pay) - but if Crew are needed and no one available at the time needed (for whom the trip / experiance itself is regarded as the payment)......then time to get the cheque book out - or stay in port.

Personally, if the voyage was simply for my fun / the experiance, if the Skipper / Owner wasn't willing to cover at least my onboard expenses I would take this as a good indicator that the Skipper was potless, and the boat was maintained accordingly. If I was crewing commercially I would want flights to and from - plus cash.

But as much else in life (and with boats) paying more does not alone guarantee "better" (or "safer" )....and that includes with crew, but a few dollars / quid spent wisely does open up your choices - but still up to the Skipper to make the choices good ones.


If Crew are not needed (only wanted) - then Skipper / Crew pays according to what each side is happy with.
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Old 22-02-2012, 18:03   #17
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It all depends who is benefitting and to what degree...

In terms of paid crew there are a lot of wannabes out there. A friend posted for crew to join a passage clearly stating a shared expense cruise for an adventurous young person or couple. 10 to 1 responses were folks with various states of sailing resumes looking to get paid.
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Old 22-02-2012, 18:22   #18
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Re: To pay or not to pay....crew

Thank you all for your replies, even though I am a "newbie." Clearly there are many points of view on this topic. From what I gather, it is a circumstantial answer. I completely agree with the fact that professional boat deliveries are market based. It seems that at the moment, there are more than enough people willing and wanting to get on boats. From crew wanting to expand their knowledge base to people looking for an adventure. From what I see, it is both a testament to the adventurous spirit in novices and a trial for those who seek a livelihood in the industry. As woman with a lifelong passion for sailing, whether it be the excitement of a racecourse, the soothing motion offshore, a respect for a bitch slap from the ocean, or being able to make my livelihood from what I love most, the best of all is the worldwide community to be found ashore, asea, or online.
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Old 22-02-2012, 19:52   #19
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Re: To pay or not to pay....crew

I think you were asking more about non-professional delivery crews and how to deal with it.
The answer is, as you have seen, is, "it depends". I have alot of experience over many years as a pro, crew, boat owner etc. I recently did a long trip with an old friend who needed some help-he is not a super wealthy guy, nor am I-on the other hand, he needed good crew and did not want to rely on "crewfinders" and dock walkers and the like and I wanted to go to sea. The boat (meaning the owner of course) covered all expenses while I was on board-which was a little more than 3 weeks-all provisioning and a little bit of shore dinners etc though we did not spend much time ashore. I paid my plane ticket from US to Europe and the boat, (again the owner, but I think "the boat' covering stuff works-philosophically if you will) pitched in towards that-he was not really able to cover all expenses-airfare and travel and nor was I really-so we sort of split it and everyone was happy.
I think like all things, you get what you pay for pretty much and you just have to work it out fairly-it "depends"...
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Old 22-02-2012, 19:56   #20
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Re: To pay or not to pay....crew

If I may, as I was the person calling out the op,


If friends are getting together for a week or months long trip to the Caribbean by all means the costs, except boat maintenance should be shared.

If it's advertised as a training cruise then both crew and skipper are receiving something of value and acceptable to eachother.

If a boat owner can't get his boat from point A to B and needs crew, that crew is another expense like fuel, oil, sails, etc. Why should I be expected to finance someone elses cruising?

In this case, the individual states in his opening line that he obtained the delivery of a boat. That kind of boat, to a new owner, isn't going to be trusted to some crackhead living under the dock. Somebody is making big bank and intends keeping it all for himself while his experienced crew gets to pay all their own expenses.

I'll up the stakes, if the OP and crew prove the boat owner knows of this arrangement, I'll buy him a case of scotch
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Old 22-02-2012, 22:01   #21
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Re: To pay or not to pay....crew

You wouldn't expect a trucking company to move your boat a thousand miles for the experience of driving....would you?
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Old 22-02-2012, 22:27   #22
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Re: To pay or not to pay....crew

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You wouldn't expect a trucking company to move your boat a thousand miles for the experience of driving....would you?
Good point. Your username sucked me into this thread. MMA grad?
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Old 22-02-2012, 22:38   #23
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Re: To pay or not to pay....crew

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Originally Posted by ughmo2000 View Post
If I may, as I was the person calling out the op,
ughmo2000,
Confused by that statement.
If you look at the prev posts in this thread from #1 onwards this is the first post of yours to appear. Did you have a prev post that you are referring too that perhaps was deleted by the mods for the way you were calling out the op?? ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ughmo2000 View Post
If friends are getting together for a week or months long trip to the Caribbean by all means the costs, except boat maintenance should be shared.

If it's advertised as a training cruise then both crew and skipper are receiving something of value and acceptable to each other.

If a boat owner can't get his boat from point A to B and needs crew, that crew is another expense like fuel, oil, sails, etc. Why should I be expected to finance someone else's cruising?
The above 3 points from your post are taken & logically made though not all would agree. IMHO

John
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Old 23-02-2012, 09:12   #24
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

There are some great points made here (mine not among them, unfortunately) on the issue of crewing/accompanying/helping out on a passage. I probably misread the OP and took it as a request for advice on engaging a professional delivery skipper and crew and the financial arrangements that were appropriate.
I've been asked many times to help out friends to get their boat from A to B and the only caution I have is if you are doing it as a favor and you are licensed and there is a mishap, either physically involving a crew member, paid or not, or, to the vessel, whether or not you are hired in a professioal capacity or just helping out an old friend, you are held to a higher standard of seamanship when liability is an issue, as so you should be. Make certain that even if you're doing a favor and working for nothing, that you have a written agreement covering the delivery to ensure that your personal liability insurance covers you in the event something goes south. I've never personally been involved in an incident doing a favor for a friend but I know at least one professional individual who has and it did not turn out well for him. Capt Phil
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Old 23-02-2012, 10:10   #25
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

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Originally Posted by Capt Phil View Post
There are some great points made here (mine not among them, unfortunately) on the issue of crewing/accompanying/helping out on a passage. I probably misread the OP and took it as a request for advice on engaging a professional delivery skipper and crew and the financial arrangements that were appropriate.
Capt Phil
Agreed took it the same way Capt Phil but have a few ? re this and wording of op post raised to me.
My example ?. Per diem number is fine per person.
Groupe B boat we will use Lagoon cat & CNB mono from Bordeaux, France to Anapolis, Maryland. Forget all boat expenses such as fuel, repairs etc which are clearly owners but if crew is paid and professional how many would comprise the crew on the CNB (avg 45' boat) Mono?
and paid crew labor cost?
Crew # on the avg 45' Cat?
and paid crew labor cost ?

2nd question same parameters but now only Capt is pro and paid and he uses "free" crew who are on cruising adventure. Cost to owner does it go down or remains the same and the Capt keeps the bank difference??

That is where I thought the ? was going and I do not know the answers which is why I am asking for you delivery Captains for the reasonable answers.
And I am not complaining if the Del Capt keeps the bank and collects food expenses from the "free" unpaid in wages crew as he will have more work to do teaching and watching the crew. Just would like some honest answers.
Thanks,
John
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Old 23-02-2012, 10:47   #26
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

Good questions, John... I can only speak from my personal experience and practice so my advice would not be universally applied. That said, if I were commissioned to deliver either vessel from Bordeaux, France to Annapolis, Maryland I would charge airfare from where I and the crew embarked, say San Francisco to Charles de Gaulle airport and ground transport, probably rental car to Bordeaux. Other air charges would be from Annapolis home to the west coast after the delivery. If I and crew were on the east coast, no return airfare to the west coast, of course. No charge for meals enroute for skipper or crew but would charge if lodging overnight was required. I would suggest to the owner that skipper and 2 crew members be engaged for the delivery. If he/she had crew members in mind who I hadn't sailed with before, I would want CV's and interviews before agreeing to engage them. The crew I sailed with over the years had heaps of experience, knew each other well and had proven teamworking, sailing and mechanical skills already demonstrated in a variety of adverse sea conditions. The whole idea is to take an unknown vessel and get her to its destination safely in the minimum time and with the minimum of damage arriving shipshape and clean ready for the owner to provision and step aboard. Doesn't always work out that way but that is the goal.
Costs when I retired would run $250-300/day for myself and $125-150/day for each crew member. If the vessel was a powerboat, the owner may opt for a marine mechanic as one of the crew depending on the power systems aboard and could run up to $200/day. Laydays in port due to weather or mechanical would be somewhat less per diem for skipper and crew.
Provisions, parts, safety gear left aboard after the passage would be at additional charge.
These conditions, costs, and commitments would be laid out clearly in a contract, signed by both parties, including crew prior to departure from the west coast.
Usually, clients set up an account to draw expenses on if deliveries were coastal. Not an issue for pan-ocean deliveries.
That gives you a structural idea what I would deem prudent and fair when I was in the business. There are of course, many variations each vessel and client being unique in their needs and wishes. Hope this clears up you questions. Cheers, Capt Phil
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Old 23-02-2012, 10:51   #27
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

Sorry, John... didn't answer your question 2... Cost to owner would go down if crew was along for a pleasure 'experience'. I would still want CV's and interviews with all crew before departure and right of refusal even if they were paying the owner for the trip. I've had too many owner endorsed crew who turned out to be 'unsatisfactory'. Capt Phil
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Old 23-02-2012, 11:31   #28
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

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Sorry, John... didn't answer your question 2... Cost to owner would go down if crew was along for a pleasure 'experience'. I would still want CV's and interviews with all crew before departure and right of refusal even if they were paying the owner for the trip. I've had too many owner endorsed crew who turned out to be 'unsatisfactory'. Capt Phil
ha ha! i think the adage is"no favour goes un-punished!"

i'm very wary about taking unknow entities on paid deliveries,espeasially alchoholic owners!
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Old 23-02-2012, 11:33   #29
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

+1, atoll... CP
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Old 23-02-2012, 12:01   #30
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Re: To pay or not to pay ... crew

Please correct me if I am wrong, But I was always under the impression that here in the states, If the captain of the boat received any compensation that captain had to be duly certified as a captain as a 6 pack or above.
If you are just an owner and call yourself a captain you cannot take on paying passengers and that is what you are doing if you except fuel, food or money for same. I know people do otherwise but there are legal ramifications.
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