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Old 01-06-2014, 02:26   #121
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Re: This Changing Life... better..? or worse..??

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I'm too young to know if anything's changed and sure too new at cruising. Not sure it matters to me how it was and I sure don't know how it's going to be. I just try to make the most of how it is. Maybe I'm just like totally insane, but it sure is fun in my world.
This.
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:42   #122
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Re: This Changing Life... better..? or worse..??

Jeff Trefethen, in the Cruising Life, alleges in the section about "planning departure" (just after the famous bit about the cruising kitty being the most important thing) that cruisers view charterers with contempt and that charter companies deliberately discourage their customers from coming into contact with cruisers.

The cruisers, he claims, think the charterers are not real sailors because everything is done for them (this makes sense), while the charter companies allegedly do not want charter customers to realize that cruisers can have the same experience for months or more on what charterers spend in weeks or less.

He concludes that aspiring cruisers should not charter.

This does not match our experience at all. For example: In Monaco we started walking the docks and randomly encountered a Frenchman rinsing the decks on his older Beneteau cruiser. We started talking, he learned we were charterers, and we learned the real-life details of how best to reach Corsica, among other things. In Redfish point we anchored near a cruising yacht and the couple aboard asked when we were going to buy our own boat and really go. There followed a conversation full of encouragement and good will. In St. Thomas the snappily dressed gentlemen on his own Oyster 53 was nothing but friendly and enthusiastic about the joys of sailing. In fact, all of our encounters with full time cruisers have inspired us to keep sailing and eventually cut the lines.

We've never felt judged by cruisers. We've always enjoyed the company of those who share, and are living, our dream.

Did we miss something? The sailing world seems a lot nicer than in Mr. Trefethen's day.

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Old 01-06-2014, 03:11   #123
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Re: This Changing Life... better..? or worse..??

Not my experience at all. Nice friendly cruisers everywhere, just need to know how to break the ice.
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Old 01-06-2014, 03:20   #124
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Re: This Changing Life... better..? or worse..??

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Not my experience at all. Nice friendly cruisers everywhere, just need to know how to break the ice.
But you do have a beautiful Oyster to break the ice.......
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Old 01-06-2014, 07:50   #125
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Re: This Changing Life... better..? or worse..??

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Not my experience at all. Nice friendly cruisers everywhere, just need to know how to break the ice.

+1
We only cruise around south FL and the Bahamas but do live on a mooring and meet many cruisers passing through. We always wave, say hello, offer information or assistance if requested. Never had anyone give us their life or financial history, not reciprocate a greeting, or push to get aboard, although we often offer. They are mostly friendly or may just keep to themselves which is all fine and not at all offensive. We are a little younger than the average cruiser so maybe not experiencing the "good ol days" makes our experience more enjoyable and novel.
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Old 01-06-2014, 15:40   #126
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Re: This Changing Life... better..? or worse..??

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He concludes that aspiring cruisers should not charter.
Well, I strongly disagree with his conclusion. We chartered. In fact, the best part was we chartered the same model we then ordered.

Now the part of one group judging the other? Yes and who cares? Seriously, groups judge others all the time. Cat and Mono owners. Sail and Power. Builder vs. Builder. Anchor vs. Marina. But the vast majority of people are encouraging and supportive. They help you figure it out and decide where you want to go.
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Old 01-06-2014, 16:01   #127
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Re: This Changing Life... better..? or worse..??

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+1
We only cruise around south FL and the Bahamas but do live on a mooring and meet many cruisers passing through. We always wave, say hello, offer information or assistance if requested. Never had anyone give us their life or financial history, not reciprocate a greeting, or push to get aboard, although we often offer. They are mostly friendly or may just keep to themselves which is all fine and not at all offensive. We are a little younger than the average cruiser so maybe not experiencing the "good ol days" makes our experience more enjoyable and novel.
Wifey B: Oh those cruisers from West Palm are uppity....lol. Just teasing. We love West Palm. Mainly Norton. But it's so silly. And yes being younger is different too, but causes us no problems. We live our own way and don't look for some confirmation. Just try to be friendly to all we run across. We've been called (behind our back) snobs because we wouldn't join an older couple for drinks at 4:30 pm. Well, we were headed out to explore, a long walk. We had things to do we enjoy. If all we wanted to do was drink, we could stay home and do that. But a lot of times older people are super friendly as we're the age of their kids or one did say I reminded her of her granddaughter. As her granddaughter was 21, I loved that. Take years off my age anytime you want. Prying questions we handle with humor. We never feel compelled to answer so just make up something totally outlandish and hope they laugh. Sometimes afraid one actually believes it.

Honestly, the pleasant experiences on the water outnumber the negative like a bazillion to one. Then we try to live life like that. Emphasize the positive. Surround with positive energy.
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Old 01-06-2014, 18:34   #128
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pirate Re: This Changing Life... better..? or worse..??

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Originally Posted by BWB75 View Post
Jeff Trefethen, in the Cruising Life, alleges in the section about "planning departure" (just after the famous bit about the cruising kitty being the most important thing) that cruisers view charterers with contempt and that charter companies deliberately discourage their customers from coming into contact with cruisers.
This reference is ... I think the word might be "precious." Captain Trefethen, whose first name is Jim, BTW, is not what most would call a household name. I only know his first name by Googling. With 60 years around the water, I missed the "famous bit about the cruising kitty being the most important thing." The referenced book was written in 1998. I think some of us may have realized that money was key somewhat before that.

Cappy, this is the big leagues. Please don't try to lay some youthful boogie woogie on the kings and queens of rock and roll. And to yer specific point, see:



Please get yer feet wet before telling us wot's wot.
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Old 02-06-2014, 19:33   #129
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Re: This Changing Life... better..? or worse..??

While cruising, and cruisers, have certainly changed over time, there are still a lot of good folks cruising (regardless of boat/budget/nationality/etc).

I've spent the past decade slowly making my way south from Texas/Florida (very slowly, just got to Panama a couple of seasons ago!) and have met some great cruiser folks along the way.

Have also really enjoyed the relationships I've forged with locals along the way. Still lots of good folks ashore too.
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Old 02-06-2014, 21:12   #130
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Re: This Changing Life... better..? or worse..??

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While cruising, and cruisers, have certainly changed over time, there are still a lot of good folks cruising (regardless of boat/budget/nationality/etc).
...

Have also really enjoyed the relationships I've forged with locals along the way. Still lots of good folks ashore too.
Yep, that's it in a nutshell... and one of the main reasons we've kept cruising so long.

Jim
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Old 03-06-2014, 07:36   #131
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Re: This Changing Life... better..? or worse..??

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Originally Posted by BWB75 View Post
Jeff Trefethen, in the Cruising Life, alleges in the section about "planning departure" (just after the famous bit about the cruising kitty being the most important thing) that cruisers view charterers with contempt and that charter companies deliberately discourage their customers from coming into contact with cruisers.

The cruisers, he claims, think the charterers are not real sailors because everything is done for them (this makes sense), while the charter companies allegedly do not want charter customers to realize that cruisers can have the same experience for months or more on what charterers spend in weeks or less.

He concludes that aspiring cruisers should not charter.
...


We've never felt judged by cruisers. We've always enjoyed the company of those who share, and are living, our dream.

Did we miss something? The sailing world seems a lot nicer than in Mr. Trefethen's day.

Haven't read Mr Treferhen's book, but based on your comments, he shows a lack of in depth knowledge of this subject (charters vs cruisers), or at least a very one dimensional understanding, and I certainly don't agree with his conclusion.

I've worked off and on as a charter captain since 1994 with charter companies from mom & pops to Moorings/Sunsail. I've run fully crewed full service charters, supported bareboat charters, and run a lot of "instructional" charters (charter including sailing instruction).

The last category (Instructional Charter) really muddies the waters on Mr Treferhen's point of view. The students are typically wannabee cruisers and are the type of folks most of us cruisers would enjoy hanging out with anyway. I've run many fun instructional charters with students who've become friends. Quite a few of them have gone cruising (recently got an email from former students who are now cruising the S Pacific!). This type of charter is a great way to learn and build experience. I've also done a number of these on the same type of boat the students are considering buying (great way to learn and evaluate the boat). Also have done this on their boat after they bought it. During these charters its not uncommon for us to hang out with cruisers (often friends of mine), because the students want to get their perspective too (all part of learning and evaluating the life style).

And, very contrary to his point of view, experienced sailors/cruisers do charter. I haven't chartered in years, but I used to, back when I had a real job and less free time. More recently have considered booking charters aboard potential next-boats or in cruising grounds I'm not likely to make it to at my leisurely pace.

Re lack of charterer's sailing skills, while inexperience is not unusual, I have run into very experienced sailing friends in Belize out on charter. They were still working, so chartering was the only practical way for them to get in some cruising time. They are hardcore racing friends, from my racing days, and potential future cruisers. It would be amusing, in a pathetic sort of way, to see the typical cruisers pit their sailing skills against this crowd.

His statements that "charter companies deliberately discourage their customers from coming into contact with cruisers ... [because they don't want] charter customers to realize that cruisers can have the same experience for months or more on what charterers spend in weeks or less" shows both a lack of understanding of the industry and basic math. I've worked with many charter companies in many venues and have never run across this attitude in the industry. And, a charter, while not inexpensive, is radically less expensive than equivalent boat ownership. This mathematical challenged viewpoint totally omits the cost of capital, maintenance, and insurance (required for charter boats if not cruisers). The cost of a typical one week bareboat charter is often approximately equivalent to just the annual insurance premium (rates are higher for charter use).

I've also run a number of full service charters for experienced sailors on vacation. Usually this is a family charter where mom does not want to be the galley wench and dad wants to relax and get in some sailing when he feels like it. Experienced sailors who can, if they choose, have "everything done for them" or not.

In all honestly, yes there is a category of charterers who we make fun of...in Belize we call them "bare-ly boaters". These are folks who are a bit in over their heads and really should have a more experienced friend or captain aboard. There are also a surprising number of cruisers who fall into this category too. But, charterer or cruiser, I still wouldn't hesitate to help them out or have a beer with them (and in fact have done both).
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Old 03-06-2014, 07:44   #132
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Re: This Changing Life... better..? or worse..??

There was an analysis I saw that showed that for the average sailor, not retired, chartering is actually less expensive than owning your own boat and you get more time on the water.

Assume a loan on a 40 to 50 foot boat and a 4 to 6 month sailing season. Add dockage, maintenance, winterizing, lift in and lift out, etc. and the above statement actually makes sense.
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Old 03-06-2014, 07:58   #133
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Re: This Changing Life... better..? or worse..??

After being aboard our own boat for 14 years we once chartered a couple of boats in order to vacation with a larger group of family. I understand that this is not similar to those without boats to try chatering first; however, we did not find the experience significantly different from cruising on our own boat.

The biggest difference for us was that it left me "captaining" one boat and Nancie "captaining" the other as the rest of our family had little experience.
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Old 03-06-2014, 08:02   #134
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Re: This Changing Life... better..? or worse..??

I may have missed this within the thread, but when Joe C. had a character say, "It ain't the the ships, it's the men in them," he wasn't kidding.

Good sailing, Tholepin
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Old 03-06-2014, 08:32   #135
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Re: This Changing Life... better..? or worse..??

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There was an analysis I saw that showed that for the average sailor, not retired, chartering is actually less expensive than owning your own boat and you get more time on the water.

Assume a loan on a 40 to 50 foot boat and a 4 to 6 month sailing season. Add dockage, maintenance, winterizing, lift in and lift out, etc. and the above statement actually makes sense.
We know what boat we want. OK, there is one, but a new, slightly longer version is being designed at the moment, and we are providing our opinion on the design, so there might be a different boat we want. Well, ok, I really want a FPB 64 but that is not possible money wise.

I looked at buying a smaller version of The Boat or even a cheaper boat to allow us to go boating. Bottom line, it simply makes no money sense for us to own a boat right now. We would be hard pressed to spend four weeks a year on the boat and most likely, two weeks would be hard to do. We have land so we could store a boat for nothing but even that does not solve the money per use problem.

Chartering and crewing is what we will do. What we will have to do. Buying a boat right now would just be a complete waste of money, and would slow down, and possibly prevent us, from doing what we really want to do.

We have found most of the people living on boats/cruisers to be very friendly.

Later,
Dan
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