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Old 12-12-2012, 19:59   #76
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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Sorry, it is a tenant of a free and fair society , that we allow individuals to undertake potentially life threatening leisure activity AND we bail them out if tey get in trouble. ...So many activities would be curtailed, if you adopted your view, should fishermen fish the bearing sea in winter and regularly require rescue. Yet they are only lining their own pockets, sure let them die. Dave
Come on people: It's a tenet of Nanny Statism. I have no problem with the cancer guy heading south. I'd help him along. Fishermen making $50 K USD for 72 hours work? It's ok with me. But accept the risk. No pushing the big red button. Go down with the friggin riggin.

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It's ok Kenomac. You will never understand People who choose to be responsible for others, even so, we wont deny you assistance when you need it.
Ugh. Take care of yourselves, boys and girls. I won't ask for help. Don't even wish me a blessed day:

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Old 12-12-2012, 20:04   #77
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Re: The WTF are they thinking thread

So, regaining the spirit of the thread and what silly things people do.......

I was at a marina office several years back that shared the office space with a large and popular charter company. An irate charterer had returned a day early from what was arranged to be a four day charter. He was loudly complaining and demanding a refund saying, "The charter was suposed to be provisioned for three nights anchoring out and the boat was only supplied with two anchors!"
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Old 12-12-2012, 20:05   #78
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Re: The WTF are they thinking thread

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
I agree. My point was actually missed.... I should have said that I don't do stupid stuff on purpose, and then expect others to bail me out.
Now that's a sentiment I can go along with. I think there is a big difference between doing something that might entail some level of risk but with care, planning and awareness of the risk vs just doing something dangerous with little forethought into the consequences.

Example of the wrong attitude. I remember a news story about some dumb kid that got in trouble trying to climb some mountain in the NW US. Had no training and no clue so that seemed inevitable. So the locals had to expend time, resources and risk the safety of their rescue team to haul the kid off the mountain. So he promptly goes out and does it again with the same result.

News showed an interview with the local authorities and the kid. The authorities were getting pretty annoyed at the risk and cost. The kid said he was going out to give it another go and it was their job to risk their lives to go bail him out again and no he didn't think he should be responsible for the cost.

Still makes me mad every time I think about it.
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Old 12-12-2012, 20:15   #79
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Re: The WTF are they thinking thread

Wow,,some of guy's need to disconnect the trip wires to those Claymores and come out of the compound and visit with the rest of us,,,Sheesh!!!



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Come on people: It's a tenet of Nanny Statism. I have no problem with the cancer guy heading south. I'd help him along. Fishermen making $50 K USD for 72 hours work? It's ok with me. But accept the risk. No pushing the big red button. Go down with the friggin riggin.



Ugh. Take care of yourselves, boys and girls. I won't ask for help. Don't even wish me a blessed day:

“We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.”

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Old 12-12-2012, 21:26   #80
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Re: The WTF are they thinking thread

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“We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.”
Orson Wells
Ok everybody...a big group hug for Blue Crab...Muueew!
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Old 12-12-2012, 21:30   #81
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Re: The WTF are they thinking thread

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
No assistance necessary. I'm not out doing stupid stuff.

But thanks anyway.
One man's stupid stuf is another man's...

Some shore bound people would say there is absolutely no need to go to sea no matter how well prepared and therefore all SAR is a waste of taxpayer money.

I'd rather be in the "Dared and failed crowd than the read about it and wished" crowd.



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So, regaining the spirit of the thread and what silly things people do.......

I was at a marina office several years back that shared the office space with a large and popular charter company. An irate charterer had returned a day early from what was arranged to be a four day charter. He was loudly complaining and demanding a refund saying, "The charter was suposed to be provisioned for three nights anchoring out and the boat was only supplied with two anchors!"
Last week we chartered for a regatta. I was back end crew and am proud to say I didn't go forward of the mast all week.

However the bow crew seemed to have a really tough time getting on and off the hook. We had set the anchor and floated it each day with the fenders as not to take it racing.

On day two the bow crew took the second and third dockline. On day 4 they got the 4th. On day five there were no more docklines. We thought about bitching at Sunsail for only providing 4 docklines for an 8 day regatta.

I am so glad I never went to the bow and to this day I have no idea how they had their sh%t rigged up there...
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Old 12-12-2012, 22:02   #82
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Re: The WTF are they thinking thread

The people who fish the Bering sea, are far better prepared for the dangers and unforseen events than any mariners afloat, save perhaps the USCG. The thing is if you don't survive to spend the check then it doesn't matter how much you make. They also have investment in equipment and training that runs into the millions. Just to put seafood on some fool's plate that has no inkling to the risk involved. I have had many friends go down with the riggin, and not a one of them deserved it. They accepted that as part of the risk of living their lives on their own terms. Those fishers loath to ask for help, and when they are put in a position to have to call for help, they call each other first before the burden gets placed on society, and with the taxes they pay, they more than fill the bill. Some folks have absolutely no idea about what is involved to wrest a living from the sea. So sit back and relax we got this, and don't mind helping a neighbor that is in a bind.
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Old 12-12-2012, 22:16   #83
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Ok everybody...a big group hug for Blue Crab...Muueew!

Yeah. Well, it's way past my bedtime. I lost my way for awhile. Been on the hard much too long. It's after midnight. Looks like the Mayans were wrong.

I'll be grinding FRP at 0800, thinking:

“Whenever I find myself growing grim about the mouth; whenever it is a damp, drizzly November in my soul; whenever I find myself involuntarily pausing before coffin warehouses, and bringing up the rear of every funeral I meet; and especially whenever my hypos get such an upper hand of me, that it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats off--then, I account it high time to get to sea as soon as I can.” Melville


Cheers
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Old 12-12-2012, 22:20   #84
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Yeah. Well, it's way past my bedtime. I lost my way for awhile. Been on the hard much too long. It's after midnight. Looks like the Mayans were wrong.

I'll be grinding FRP at 0800, thinking:

“Whenever I find myself growing grim about the mouth; whenever it is a damp, drizzly November in my soul; whenever I find myself involuntarily pausing before coffin warehouses, and bringing up the rear of every funeral I meet; and especially whenever my hypos get such an upper hand of me, that it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats off--then, I account it high time to get to sea as soon as I can.” Melville

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No we're not home free yet. The Mayan thing is the 21st not the 12th.
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Old 12-12-2012, 22:26   #85
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Re: The WTF are they thinking thread

I come from a family of seafarers,,i went to sea with the last of the BC Packer fleet in the seventies,,was too young and stupid to be afraid,,saw some awesome 50 footers,,did my job,,came home,,and years later, i still dont know Nuthin.....am just happy to breath air.

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The people who fish the Bering sea, are far better prepared for the dangers and unforseen events than any mariners afloat, save perhaps the USCG. The thing is if you don't survive to spend the check then it doesn't matter how much you make. They also have investment in equipment and training that runs into the millions. Just to put seafood on some fool's plate that has no inkling to the risk involved. I have had many friends go down with the riggin, and not a one of them deserved it. They accepted that as part of the risk of living their lives on their own terms. Those fishers loath to ask for help, and when they are put in a position to have to call for help, they call each other first before the burden gets placed on society, and with the taxes they pay, they more than fill the bill. Some folks have absolutely no idea about what is involved to wrest a living from the sea. So sit back and relax we got this, and don't mind helping a neighbor that is in a bind.
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Old 12-12-2012, 23:11   #86
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15 gallons of gas, no funds, no sails, what are the odds of reaching his goal? My fear for him was running out of gas & being run down by a tow. Water temp 43f if he ended up in the river for what ever reason he wouldn't last long enough for rescue, not many people out this time of year to even notice if he had trouble. To me it's not a question of freedom or being out there doing it instead of wishing or the cost to rescue or recover his body chances are slim on both counts. No better prepared than he was to reach his goal what made him try? If like the cancer guy I completely understand the reasoning there. Lacking that type of circumstances what was the motivation that makes a person believe they stand a chance of success against such long odds? I've drawn to a inside straight but I've never drawn 3 cards to a inside straight, maybe he'll hit and be enjoying cocktails on a beach while I endure another Midwest winter.


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Old 13-12-2012, 02:07   #87
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Re: The WTF are they thinking thread

In the spirit of WTF? a short tale if intoxication and incompetence. We were at the slip one day while the owner of the dock queen 2 slips down decided he and his two buddies were going to work on the engine. About halfway through the day I started smelling fumes...not diesel but gasoline. Hmmm...poke my head out, and they are still working only now there are not only empty beer cans but 3/4 empty 40 ouncers. Hmmm...fumes REALLY strong outside from a boat 15 feet away. So I walk over and ask how it's going. Seems they can't get the engine to start. I notice a lot of sheen on the water. Turns out these guys had somehow gotten a couple of gallons of gas in the bilge and turned on the bilge pump. I strongly suggested they stop so they would not blow us all up. Being so drunk and or high on gas fumes they couldn't even think straight anymore and they wanted to argue about. It wasn't until I reminded them that it was a $20,000 fine to do what they were doing that they stopped and even asked how they could clean it up. I explained about fuel "diapers" and helped the guy get about 50 or so from the marina office. The guy decided after 10 minutes of clean up that he would go home and clean it up another time. I suggested they call a friend. One guy claimed he was ok to drive. They all left in one car but I always felt I should have tried harder to stop them...they were all obviously very drunk but they were pretty intimidating. A week later the guy comes back and after asking if I know what's wrong with his engine complains about the cost of the diapers which the marina had charged him for. The marina told me it was not the first time this guy had been loudly drunk and stupid but they couldn't afford to ask him to leave. We changed marinas the next season.
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Old 13-12-2012, 04:10   #88
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Re: The WTF are they thinking thread

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Sorry , it is a tenant of a free and fair society , that we allow individuals to undertake potentially life threatening leisure activity AND we bail them out if tey get in trouble. It's what society wants, this applies to pulling drivers from speeding cars, rescuing Sunday walkers from hilltops and includes unprepared sailors at sea. I for one would have no other way. I do not want a dog eat dog society.

So many activities would be curtailed, if you adopted your view, should fishermen fish the bearing sea in winter and regularly require rescue. Yet they are only lining their own pockets, sure let them die.

Soon your rounding them up for the ghettos, for their own protection of course don't you understand.

We attempt to create societies that strive to extend as much personal freedom as possible , yet provide appropriate safety nets where needed. It's not the law of the jungle. We allow, the disadvantaged, the infirm, the mentally and physically challenged to partake in activities that they could not do unassisted. We are allowed to be a bit irresponsible, its a ,all of a good society. We tolerate diversity.

Dave
I applaud diversity as I have said before.

All that has nothing to do with the fact that someone who puts other lives in danger when they should have known better is in the wrong. We take driving licenses away for a reason. Wherever you go on this planet, you have accountability to others in society. Don't let others mop up your messes unless they were honest mistakes and you tried to prevent them. THAT is being social. Like it or not, this is not a free for all.

I want people to be rescued even if they are acting without any train of thought. But they need to be accountable. I do not want them to rely on something as an excuse not to prepare themselves for what they want to do. People that go out on in shallow waters without any sailing experience using a car map should be punished if they run aground. Simple as that. And punished does not mean anything radical, but a forced Day Skipper course and payment for the rescue services would be a good start.

BTW - To suggest that I wouldn't want fishermen to be rescued is offensive. Let alone the ghetto comments.

It is amazing how little decorum people have these days in social interaction, particularly on the internet. You imply you are a tolerant being. Why don't you display a bit more of that tolerance before putting people on the stake?


Onno
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Old 13-12-2012, 06:21   #89
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Re: The WTF are they thinking thread

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I applaud diversity as I have said before.

All that has nothing to do with the fact that someone who puts other lives in danger when they should have known better is in the wrong. We take driving licenses away for a reason. Wherever you go on this planet, you have accountability to others in society. Don't let others mop up your messes unless they were honest mistakes and you tried to prevent them. THAT is being social. Like it or not, this is not a free for all.

I want people to be rescued even if they are acting without any train of thought. But they need to be accountable. I do not want them to rely on something as an excuse not to prepare themselves for what they want to do. People that go out on in shallow waters without any sailing experience using a car map should be punished if they run aground. Simple as that. And punished does not mean anything radical, but a forced Day Skipper course and payment for the rescue services would be a good start.

BTW - To suggest that I wouldn't want fishermen to be rescued is offensive. Let alone the ghetto comments.

It is amazing how little decorum people have these days in social interaction, particularly on the internet. You imply you are a tolerant being. Why don't you display a bit more of that tolerance before putting people on the stake?


Onno
Interesting thread!
And while I haven't picked your post out of the many here for any special reason; it does highlight the many sides of the "WTF Coin".

In essence I agree with your thoughts: like "clean up your own mess" and "be accountable" but I don't think "punishment" can make "stupid" become accountable; however I could be persuaded otherwise; which works better - the carrot or the stick; I can never decide - one works for some and the other works for some.

I also think that "one can't fix stupid" and the Darwinian concept helped to remove many of the "stupid". In some ways it is a shame that we (as a society) try harder and harder to protect "stupid" from themselves yet I can't abide letting "stupid" die when they can be saved by the "smart".

On another aspect of the "WTF thing"; I have zero tolerance of those who are simply sponging of the rest of us by by willing to take advantage of our (collective) generosity in order to achieve their own goals.

I can applaud those who say go to sea with old worn out sails and are constantly re-stitching by hand because they can't afford better sails and I can approve of those who asks if someone is willing to re-stitch their sails even though they cannot pay and I can accept those who ask someone to supply new sails for free but I cannot accept in any way those who say order new sails without any intention of paying and thus frauding the sailmaker. I just see that as thievery of the worst order. My tolerance meter can't cope with such and I would be happy to be labelled as intolerant to thieves of other's generosity.

OK rant over
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Old 13-12-2012, 07:54   #90
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Re: The WTF are they thinking thread

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I also think that "one can't fix stupid" and the Darwinian concept helped to remove many of the "stupid". In some ways it is a shame that we (as a society) try harder and harder to protect "stupid" from themselves yet I can't abide letting "stupid" die when they can be saved by the "smart".

On another aspect of the "WTF thing"; I have zero tolerance of those who are simply sponging of the rest of us by by willing to take advantage of our (collective) generosity in order to achieve their own goals.


"they" will be coming after you now though so be ready
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