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Old 21-07-2013, 22:12   #151
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sabray View Post
... nina had epirb was it updated?...
It's claimed that Nina had a EPIRB. So I just did some quick checking Emergency Position Indicating Radiobeacon (EPIRB)

And here's something of interest quoted from that website: "If the EPIRB is properly registered, the Coast Guard will be able to use the registration information to immediately begin action on the case. If the EPIRB is unregistered, a distress alert may take as much as two hours longer to reach the Coast Guard over the international satellite system." (my emphasis)

So what matter if the Nina's EPIRB was registered or not, or if the registration had not been updated? If activated, the EPIRB signal should still have hit the system and SAR people would be advised that SOMEBODY out there hit the Big Red Button. I've read naught to say that SAR folk reported an unknown EPIRB signal in the Tasman Sea in the time frame of interest.

My take away: An updated EPIRB registration (every two years, according to the FCC site) is only that... UPDATED with correct shore-side contact info, vessel comms devices, and, well, the rest of that stuff on the form. (Plus maybe a float plan if given to the shore-side folks that could be passed to SAR.)

The EPIRB won't suddenly be blocked from the system and ignored merely because it wasn't "updated". Anybody have reason to dispute that?

James
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Old 21-07-2013, 22:49   #152
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by svmariane View Post
It's claimed that Nina had a EPIRB. So I just did some quick checking Emergency Position Indicating Radiobeacon (EPIRB)

My take away: An updated EPIRB registration (every two years, according to the FCC site) is only that... UPDATED with correct shore-side contact info, vessel comms devices, and, well, the rest of that stuff on the form. (Plus maybe a float plan if given to the shore-side folks that could be passed to SAR.)

The EPIRB won't suddenly be blocked from the system and ignored merely because it wasn't "updated". Anybody have reason to dispute that?

James
In the case of Nina, SAR units in NZ said her EPIRB has not been activated so I don't see how the registration question is germane to this specific case. They obviously must know the EPIRB unique identifier. Presumably a family member or friend provided it or the authorities searched the database using the description of the vessel and owner and found the EPIRB number.

If the registration is out of date then a lot of hoops have to be jumped before SAR gets initiated. It is possible for an EPIRB signal to be ignored for a long time due to failure to get through some of these hoops. I believe a while back there was a sunk J boat returning from a race and their EPIRB was ignored for several hours due to some kind of registration issue. They were rescued safely anyway. Still, I would refrain from suggesting to anyone hoping to learn from this tragedy that it is ok to let the EPIRB registration lapse 'cuz they'll come looking for you anyway. That is not a good practice in my view because false EPIRB alerts are on the rise and the authorities may be forced to change their standing orders regarding unregistered EPIRB activation.
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Old 22-07-2013, 00:56   #153
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

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Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
If the registration is out of date then a lot of hoops have to be jumped before SAR gets initiated. It is possible for an EPIRB signal to be ignored for a long time due to failure to get through some of these hoops.
That's useful to know .
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Old 22-07-2013, 03:53   #154
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

The Rescue service here get very annoyed about digging old, out of date and unused Epirbs from rubbish dumps,

Yes, Australia responds to all Epirb distress calls, So does NZ,

2 Miles off shore in Australia, an Epirb is compulsory, Not sure about NZ,
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Old 22-07-2013, 04:47   #155
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Re: Schooner Nina - MERGED 3 THREADS

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Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
Until something is found, it makes no difference.
Sure does to me....if I know a boat will float but it's structure may be compromised by age or the way it was repaired...it CERTAINLY changes my operational decision making.

So... it is useful knowledge in what we are doing in this thread....trying to "guess" whether as some have said they are limping towards South America or possibly treading water.

As a skipper if I know my boat is compromised and I'm going anyway...I may have rerouted based on predicted weather. So search areas might be altered based on that info.

I could go on for quite a bit but hopefully you get my point.

Plus...I thought this thread was the "learning thread" and the other was the "rah rah thread"....so ALL reasonable accident investigative ideas are welcome in my book...that how some accident causes are ultimately solved and lessons learned.
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Old 22-07-2013, 04:54   #156
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Re: Schooner Nina - MERGED 3 THREADS

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Plus...I thought this thread was the "learning thread" and the other was the "rah rah thread"....so ALL reasonable accident investigative ideas are welcome in my book...that how some accident causes are ultimately solved and lessons learned.
Yeah, that was the idea - plus this thread does not have to stay solely on the Nina, just because something cannot be proved to be applicable for the Nina nonetheless does not mean not worth discussing (i.e. being crew on an old wooden boat heading accross an ocean does merit much more thought than simply how many bottles of sun screen to bring! - as such a venture is not without some risk (mostly around unknowns of the boat and skipper and other crew - that will remain unknown)........there is a very good reason why licensed / coded (and inspected) Skippered Charter Vessels are expensive - and it ain't due solely to the cost of red tape........
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Old 22-07-2013, 05:02   #157
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

Quote:
If the registration is out of date then a lot of hoops have to be jumped before SAR gets initiated. It is possible for an EPIRB signal to be ignored for a long time due to failure to get through some of these hoops. I believe a while back there was a sunk J boat returning from a race and their EPIRB was ignored for several hours due to some kind of registration issue. They were rescued safely anyway. Still, I would refrain from suggesting to anyone hoping to learn from this tragedy that it is ok to let the EPIRB registration lapse 'cuz they'll come looking for you anyway. That is not a good practice in my view because false EPIRB alerts are on the rise and the authorities may be forced to change their standing orders regarding unregistered EPIRB activation
This is pure supposition. All EPIRB activations are investigated, registered or not.

Typically what happens is that if there is only the EPIRB hex code, this has a country code identifier which is programmed by the manufacturer. Thats countries EPIRB database is queried first, ( so if you buy a US EPIRB mail order, register it with NOAA).

If no registration data is found in the country of origin a request is sent out to query the various databases around the world ( there is plans for a single global database, but as yet its country/region specific). This can take time. IN the meantime, many SAR operations then issue a PAN PAN or other radio call notifying ships to keep a lookup.

If the EPIRB activation seems credible , ie over a sea areas etc, SAR authorities will respond anyway in the absence of registration data.

SO it still works, albeit a bit of a delay

But there is simply no excuse for a unregistered EPIRB

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Old 22-07-2013, 05:08   #158
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by svmariane View Post
It's claimed that Nina had a EPIRB. So I just did some quick checking Emergency Position Indicating Radiobeacon (EPIRB)

And here's something of interest quoted from that website: "If the EPIRB is properly registered, the Coast Guard will be able to use the registration information to immediately begin action on the case. If the EPIRB is unregistered, a distress alert may take as much as two hours longer to reach the Coast Guard over the international satellite system." (my emphasis)

So what matter if the Nina's EPIRB was registered or not, or if the registration had not been updated? If activated, the EPIRB signal should still have hit the system and SAR people would be advised that SOMEBODY out there hit the Big Red Button. I've read naught to say that SAR folk reported an unknown EPIRB signal in the Tasman Sea in the time frame of interest.

My take away: An updated EPIRB registration (every two years, according to the FCC site) is only that... UPDATED with correct shore-side contact info, vessel comms devices, and, well, the rest of that stuff on the form. (Plus maybe a float plan if given to the shore-side folks that could be passed to SAR.)

The EPIRB won't suddenly be blocked from the system and ignored merely because it wasn't "updated". Anybody have reason to dispute that?

James
Mostly true...it usually delays things a bit...but there is a glitch in that an unrecognized registration code gets spit out of the computer...which means if the computer can't match up the registration code it tables it/put it in limbo on the non-GPS type beacons. I don't think this happens for expired beacons...just never registered ones or ones where the number has been entered incorrectly. It doesn't happen all the time..just if the info picked up by a sat is never transmitted and/or saved by a surface terminal. There's the trick with the system...if the low orbiting satellite is the older type (not sure how many are still in operation...they don't store info so if no earth station can pick up the sats info....nothing ever gets into the system).

this is from the USCG site...

"If an unregistered EPIRB transmission is abbreviated for any reason, the satellite will be unable to determine the EPIRB's location, and the Coast Guard will be unable to respond to the distress alert. Unregistered EPIRBs have needlessly cost the lives of several mariners since the satellite system became operational."

Emergency Position Indicating Radiobeacon (EPIRB)
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Old 22-07-2013, 05:13   #159
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

I have just read this thread but not others. I don't know how well the weather has been covered. I have just read the forecasts from their adviser.
It seems they were due for 50-75 knots swells to 10 m. They were at one time in the dangerous quadrant, and moved a bit south but later were in the highest winds. It seems the storm sails became shredded and the storm was then anticipated to last another 36 hours to be followed by a front and another gale a few days later. Winds are of course an estimate and waves need to be added to swells.
"They could not avoid the incoming southerly storm and ‘Running for cover’
would have prolonged the encounter with the storm so that left the ‘stay put’ option.
The only tweak I applied to this standard strategy in NINA’s case was to get them to tweak
their position and sail south into the centre of the low (light winds) and then stay put in a
braced position. This is NOT recommended in a tropical cyclone, but large Tasman lows are
generally not shaped like tropical cyclones. "
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Old 22-07-2013, 05:33   #160
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

I am no expert on sea survival, but i would not personally do such a voyage with out all crew having plb on them.If my boat sinks chances are some of us will make it into the water instead on going down and a plb give you a real chance of being noticed and getting a rescue underway?
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Old 22-07-2013, 05:47   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post

This is pure supposition. All EPIRB activations are investigated, registered or not.
I don't believe it is. Read the USCG online information and/or some actual rescue reports and it is easy to see why there could be delays. The common case is someone buys a boat with an EPIRB and does not update the registration. The unit goes off and the PO gets a phone call. He tells the caller he sold the boat some years ago and has no idea what the current status of the boat is. Now the system has lost the ability to call down the chain to validate the boat is in fact at sea and learn the current status such as number of souls on board, etc. Investigations can and do take longer for out of date or unregistered EPIRBS to trigger a SAR.

[
Quote:
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But there is simply no excuse for a unregistered EPIRB

dave
Agreed.
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Old 22-07-2013, 05:58   #162
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

Quote:
Mostly true...it usually delays things a bit...but there is a glitch in that an unrecognized registration code gets spit out of the computer...which means if the computer can't match up the registration code it tables it/put it in limbo on the non-GPS type beacons. I don't think this happens for expired beacons...just never registered ones or ones where the number has been entered incorrectly. It doesn't happen all the time..just if the info picked up by a sat is never transmitted and/or saved by a surface terminal. There's the trick with the system...if the low orbiting satellite is the older type (not sure how many are still in operation...they don't store info so if no earth station can pick up the sats info....nothing ever gets into the system).

this is from the USCG site...

"If an unregistered EPIRB transmission is abbreviated for any reason, the satellite will be unable to determine the EPIRB's location, and the Coast Guard will be unable to respond to the distress alert. Unregistered EPIRBs have needlessly cost the lives of several mariners since the satellite system became operational."
This makes no sense, ( i looked up the US NAVCEN page).

Whether an EPIRB is registered or not has no impact WHATSOEVER on its ability to be located. Straight out of the box EPIRBS can be located by doppler shift techniques, If fitted with a GPS ( ie a GPIRB) then GEOSTAR can read those co-ordinates to back up the doppler shift. SAR always waits for a doppler confirmation.

This sentence "If an unregistered EPIRB transmission is abbreviated for any reason," is nonsensical , if the epirb signal is somehow cut short , then no mechanism will locate the EPIRB.

Adding registration data, affects EPIRBs in two ways,

Some countries require re-programming with either National Ships callsign or MMSI or both. Such registration data then directly identifies the ship without further database lookup. This method has been slowly giving way to useing the base manufacturers HEX code as this does not require EPIRB reprogramming and is more compatible with modern online shopping methods. In this case the EPIRP hex code is entered into a national database , ( using the in built country/region identifier) , hence on reception at a ground station this hex code can be examined to determine wihich national MRCC deals with the registration lookup.

Quote:
Mostly true...it usually delays things a bit...but there is a glitch in that an unrecognized registration code gets spit out of the computer...which means if the computer can't match up the registration code it tables it/put it in limbo on the non-GPS type beacons. I don't think this happens for expired beacons...just never registered ones or ones where the number has been entered incorrectly. It doesn't happen all the time..just if the info picked up by a sat is never transmitted and/or saved by a surface terminal. There's the trick with the system...if the low orbiting satellite is the older type (not sure how many are still in operation...they don't store info so if no earth station can pick up the sats info....nothing ever gets into the system).
This is unfortunately technical globildy gook, COSPAR SARSAT is quite a dated system, the satellites do minimal data manipulation , However 406MHz payloads do store teh data until the ground station comes into view ( 121mhz did not), so the satellites can cover more obscure ocean areas, where simultaneous ground station and target are not available. ( known as global mode as opposed to local mode) as a backup the search and rescue payload has a repeator function that can only be used in "local mode"

There is no such thing as an "expired" EPIRB, the birds will decode any valid Hex signature and pass it to the ground station. "expiry " is a function of decisions local authorities take in relation to their EPIRB database.

COSPAR SARSAT is a polar orbiting system, its still the mainstay of EPIRB detection , despite increasing use of GPIRBS and the GEOSTAR system ( hosted by inmarsat), GEOSTAR payloads can relay an alert( known as repeator operation) , but cannot give any indication of position , unless supplied by a GPIRB ( note that GPIRBS while common are not mandatory on ships) .

However for registered EPIRBS, GEOSTAR can provide almost instantaneous alerts , while position decoding is awaiting a pass of a LEOSTAR bird. SAR authorities can query teh database, begin making calls to ascertain what and where the vessel might be , while awaiting LEOSTAR confirmation.

SO the moral of the story , buy and register a GPIRB.

dave
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Old 22-07-2013, 06:23   #163
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

I started to answer but when I reread things like this

"This sentence "If an unregistered EPIRB transmission is abbreviated for any reason," is nonsensical , if the epirb signal is somehow cut short , then no mechanism will locate the EPIRB."

it would take too long to explain the entire system in an internet forum.

I think the COSPAT/SARSAT system now in 2013 has eliminated all the older style satellites and improved ground station coverage so the "old glitch" is all but eliminated...

The sinking of the LADY MARY fishing vessel off the coast in New Jersey was the case that sparked the whole "unregistered EPIRB" uproar in the USA over the last several years. NOAA and the USCG reviewed the case and if you have a registered EPIRB in the US you got letter asking you to verify the registration number. While not too many of the articles written give the technical background on how the system works...it started an internal process that would hopefully eliminate the last of the "glitches".

If you are in tremendous seas, you are taking a big chance of not being seen by the polar orbiting low sats that find you through doppler....a GPIRB will greatly improve your chances of being quickly located.
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Old 22-07-2013, 06:33   #164
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
This makes no sense, ( i looked up the US NAVCEN page).

Whether an EPIRB is registered or not has no impact WHATSOEVER on its ability to be located. Straight out of the box EPIRBS can be located by doppler shift techniques, If fitted with a GPS ( ie a GPIRB) then GEOSTAR can read those co-ordinates to back up the doppler shift. SAR always waits for a doppler confirmation.

This sentence "If an unregistered EPIRB transmission is abbreviated for any reason," is nonsensical , if the epirb signal is somehow cut short , then no mechanism will locate the EPIRB.

Adding registration data, affects EPIRBs in two ways,

Some countries require re-programming with either National Ships callsign or MMSI or both. Such registration data then directly identifies the ship without further database lookup. This method has been slowly giving way to useing the base manufacturers HEX code as this does not require EPIRB reprogramming and is more compatible with modern online shopping methods. In this case the EPIRP hex code is entered into a national database , ( using the in built country/region identifier) , hence on reception at a ground station this hex code can be examined to determine wihich national MRCC deals with the registration lookup.



This is unfortunately technical globildy gook, COSPAR SARSAT is quite a dated system, the satellites do minimal data manipulation , However 406MHz payloads do store teh data until the ground station comes into view ( 121mhz did not), so the satellites can cover more obscure ocean areas, where simultaneous ground station and target are not available. ( known as global mode as opposed to local mode) as a backup the search and rescue payload has a repeator function that can only be used in "local mode"

There is no such thing as an "expired" EPIRB, the birds will decode any valid Hex signature and pass it to the ground station. "expiry " is a function of decisions local authorities take in relation to their EPIRB database.

COSPAR SARSAT is a polar orbiting system, its still the mainstay of EPIRB detection , despite increasing use of GPIRBS and the GEOSTAR system ( hosted by inmarsat), GEOSTAR payloads can relay an alert( known as repeator operation) , but cannot give any indication of position , unless supplied by a GPIRB ( note that GPIRBS while common are not mandatory on ships) .

However for registered EPIRBS, GEOSTAR can provide almost instantaneous alerts , while position decoding is awaiting a pass of a LEOSTAR bird. SAR authorities can query teh database, begin making calls to ascertain what and where the vessel might be , while awaiting LEOSTAR confirmation.

SO the moral of the story , buy and register a GPIRB.

dave
+1
And FWIW, Oz RCC treats an unregistered EPIRB activation with the same urgency as a registered one although a registered one may allow for more accurate data early on in the SAR phase if communications can be established with the shore contact on the register. I am sure NZ does the same but of course I can't make any valid comment on what the USCG does.
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Old 22-07-2013, 13:30   #165
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

Regarding EPIRBs:

I quoted (somewhere above) info from the FCC to erase any question about Nina's EPIRB and its being "updated" or not having a bearing on SAR efforts. No EPIRB signal was reported, known or unknown. Does anyone dispute that?

Note: Before you hit the keyboard, I'm talking EPIRBs in this post - I'm NOT evaluating the pro and con of AIS vs EPIRB vs VHF vs flares vs SSB vs SatPhone, etc.

We seem to agree here on the board (Wow. Reread that and grin.) that the best chances for a vessel in trouble lay with having a GPS/EPIRB, registered, with updated contact information, and providing the shore-contact basic info (ie. # of souls aboard; last port / intended port of call). (Now reread that note above.)

If any or even all of that information is inaccurate or missing then SAR efforts will be delayed, BUT the SAR efforts will commence IF an EPIRB signal hits the system.

Old 121.5 MHz units are virtually useless. {Possible: somebody's search plane might still have the proper equipment to hand and could zone in on the signal. Not recommended to trust.} Best to remove batteries and dispose of unit.

Middle-Old combination 121.5 / 406 MHz units sans GPS would still notify SAR via the 406 part but search footprint would be very large.

Newer 406 MHz units sans GPS will notify SAR but search footprint would be very large.

New 406 MHz GPS units give the quickest response in the narrowest footprint.

If each crew person has a new version 406 MHz PLB with GPS - well, that's the Cat's Meow.

Does that about sum things up? Anyone have disagreement?

Right, then.... Suggested topic for a new thread: Buy a PLB with GPS for your boat dog? {One wonders how the on-scene SAR folk would react ....}
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