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13-03-2019, 15:31
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#46
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: New York, New York
Boat: Dufour Safari 27'
Posts: 1,909
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer
The economic disparity between cruisers and those they encounter ashore in more remote areas is stark.
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I'm not sure that this has any relevance to interacting with anyone. I see economic disparity everywhere I go or have been. In many cases I was the "wealthy" one and in some cases I was the "pauper." I am sure that in the vast majority of cases the locals have their own disparity among themselves. The only things that are important is whether the two parties wish to do business together, agree upon the terms, and are happy with the outcome.
As to your morality question in the tag line, all you have to do is to NOT interact with the locals. Will it be moral if everyone avoids working with the locals?
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13-03-2019, 16:40
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#47
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals
Pretty sure Kipling was sincerely advocating "we" take up the "White Man's Burden" as a sincere "humanitarian" mission to bring the savages out of depravity.
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13-03-2019, 17:03
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#48
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CF Adviser
Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 10,280
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals
Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct
Pretty sure Kipling was sincerely advocating "we" take up the "White Man's Burden" as a sincere "humanitarian" mission to bring the savages out of depravity.
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Agree John,
One of the most beautiful and disturbing movies I ever saw was The Mission with Robert de Niro.
Taught me to recognise where the rubber meets the road.
https://youtu.be/Ui91q7Y9xPk
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14-03-2019, 01:28
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#49
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Boat: Lagoon 400S2
Posts: 3,755
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals
Who's moral are you talking about, your's or the one of the locals?
When you visit foreign places adopt to their value system as long as you are there.
When in Rome, do what Romans do.
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14-03-2019, 01:59
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#50
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CF Adviser
Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 10,280
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatNewBee
Who's moral are you talking about, your's or the one of the locals?
When you visit foreign places adopt to their value system as long as you are there.
When in Rome, do what Romans do.
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Nope! .....didn't work so well for the Jews in Nazi Germany.
I found that people worldwide are the same... Mostly Good, some Bad and some Really Bad!
What differs by country, is the level of corruption in Government, that creates monopoles for the connected
This price fixing increases the level of desperation that a man trying to feed his family faces.
The good ones find a way to sustain themselves
The Bad find an excuse to take advantage of others.
The Really Bad, just take.
Here in the Philippines, I'm used to paying skin tax cause I'm white....doesn't really bother me unless its exorbitant and then Zaida steps in to scold them! All done with a laugh and no anger.
As for Monopolies....For example a $200 Webber Q1200 BBQ will cost me over $400 here, with no service, no accessories and no choice
Its just more fun in the Philippines! [emoji57]
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14-03-2019, 02:44
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#51
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 11,002
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetepare
I dunno mate, most of the Pacific islanders are saddened by our 40+ hour workweeks, 2 weeks vacation, separation from family, and packaged food. They very kindly tell me I can keep it, they'll stick to their way.
................................
Yes, there are terrible places, and a visiting yacht is seen as the scum of the rich, the opulent, those that made their money on the backs of the suffering. The level of distrust is probably never to be overcome. But by and large, a properly respectful visitor determines their own response.
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You missed his point...it's up to them to decide if they want to live a traditional or modern life.
- If they want to live the traditional lifestyle, that's their choice.
- If they want to do the 40hr work week in a cubical, that's also their choice.
You don't get to decide for them.
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14-03-2019, 03:00
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#52
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Boat: Lagoon 400S2
Posts: 3,755
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals
Moral is not just about trading alone, it is about clothing, behavior, respect of religion and faith, respect of culture.
If they walk around wailed and wrapped, do not swim and bath nude in front of them, do not wear hot paints etc. if they do not do that.
If you go into a church, do like the natives and show some respect, even in Europe there are some different standards in various countries you should follow when visiting temples, respect their privacy, do not film and take pictures without asking etc.
There are many things that may be offensive to the locals that you may find appropriate. Don't behave like a tourist but like a visitor or guest.
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14-03-2019, 03:49
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#53
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cruiser
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: On the water
Boat: OPBs
Posts: 1,370
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic
Nope! .....didn't work so well for the Jews in Nazi Germany.
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I'm case it needed saying; this is not a relevant modern day example. Crikey, talk about finding the most extreme example in the last 100 years!
Treat locals with respect and you'll get it back, mostly. There's always exceptions. None of this falls out of the bond of common sense, IMO.
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14-03-2019, 04:25
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#54
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Slidell, La.
Boat: Morgan Classic 33
Posts: 2,845
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat
So is it morally right for us in the first world to decide for these people that they should continue to live at subsistence level, with the attendant short lifespan, infant mortality, disease, poor nutrition, etc, etc.... just because we like visiting (but wouldn't want to live there) different cultures?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetepare
I dunno mate, most of the Pacific islanders are saddened by our 40+ hour workweeks, 2 weeks vacation, separation from family, and packaged food. They very kindly tell me I can keep it, they'll stick to their way.
I once asked a guy in Belize how the heck he cares for a new baby. He said "I grow some more corn, I catch a few more fish. Not like you, stuck in the squalid city scrambling for money."
Of course they are envious of your outboard! And I'm envious of those who know nothing about sailing but have a cool $750,000 to spend on a new catamaran! Would I trade my experiences, my lifestyle, my lack of money for theirs? No way.
I've been "lucky" to be accepted into many cultures. Maybe because I jump into theirs as fast as possible. I eat their food and offer mine. I share what I can. I try to speak their language.
Yes, there are terrible places, and a visiting yacht is seen as the scum of the rich, the opulent, those that made their money on the backs of the suffering. The level of distrust is probably never to be overcome. But by and large, a properly respectful visitor determines their own response.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360
You missed his point...it's up to them to decide if they want to live a traditional or modern life.
- If they want to live the traditional lifestyle, that's their choice.
- If they want to do the 40hr work week in a cubical, that's also their choice.
You don't get to decide for them.
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Not sure who missed whose point, but your 'creative editing' certainly suggests an agenda.
The exorbitantly costly (in many, many ways) lifestyle that is a part of the 'advanced' western culture, of which cruising or vacationing is an integral facet, has bills coming due, or perhaps, long overdue. Their interest (irreversible environmental damage, civil unrest, for instance) continues to rise whilst the principle (continued inhabitability of the planet) is ignored.
As for 44CC's plea for 'morality' (an essentially meaningless word if undefined, one usually used to justify or rationalize any number of dubious actions), all the adjectives in this list, "subsistence level, with the attendant short lifespan, infant mortality, disease, poor nutrition, etc, etc...." are relative and subjective.
44CC's statement, again, seems rooted in the old 'colonial spirit.'
It might be illustrative for anyone to remember that all indications are that pre-agricultural-age humans were at least more healthy than their agricultural-age brethren.
Artificial lifestyles breed artificial (and distorted) expectations, people should live until they die, populations should reflect carrying capacity of the land they occupy. Diseases are an evolutionary force, as are the negative results of poor nutrition.
And no, I'm not advocating a return to the hunter-gather lifestyle (to which we owe so many of our abilities.)
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14-03-2019, 04:29
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#55
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals
A major failing of modern life is the elimination of Darwinian selection.
Not the pseudo social analogy, but actual eating-us predators in our midst thinning the herd on a daily basis.
Should be part of the Green New Deal.
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14-03-2019, 04:32
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#56
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 11,002
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbunyard
Not sure who missed whose point, but your 'creative editing' certainly suggests an agenda.
The exorbitantly costly (in many, many ways) lifestyle that is a part of the 'advanced' western culture, of which cruising or vacationing is an integral facet, has bills coming due, or perhaps, long overdue. Their interest (irreversible environmental damage, civil unrest for instance) continues to rise whilst the principle (continued inhabitability of the planet) is ignored.
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What creative editing? I simply removed the bulk of a long post except the beginning and end so a reader knew which post I was referring to without making the post so long no one will read it (as I've done with this one and a fairly typically). I didn't delete the original post, so anyone can check the original post.
Whether the modern lifestyle is right or wrong, it is clearly wrong to decide for others that they shouldn't get to live it because we've chosen for them...while hypocritically enjoying the benefits of the modern lifestyle.
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14-03-2019, 04:43
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#57
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 11,002
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals
Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct
A major failing of modern life is the elimination of Darwinian selection.
Not the pseudo social analogy, but actual eating-us predators in our midst thinning the herd on a daily basis.
Should be part of the Green New Deal.
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Actually that's only one tiny part of Darwinism. Many other things determine how successful a species is beyond eating each other or not eating each other.
For example, a lone wolf is inferior to a lone mountain lion in terms of catching food. A mountain lion is simply better built to hunt solo. But the wolf has greater intelligence, greater ability to adapt and the ability to work as a pack. This allowed them to expand and live in just about any environment on earth in large numbers. And while on the surface numbers are way down in the last 200 years, in fact, due to their ability to adapt, their numbers have never been higher...you do realize genetically domestic dogs are no different from wolves.
This fits in nicely, the "moralists" would say the first domestic dog/wolf to wander into a human camp should have been driven out because it would be wrong to change a wolfs culture. But reality is the world changes and those who don't adapt are doomed, why are we trying to force that doom upon these people? If they choose it that's their business but in reality, they must adapt or die out.
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14-03-2019, 07:04
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#58
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: On the water
Boat: Bayliner 3870 39ft
Posts: 32
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals
You guys think on this a lot more than I do, but generally I try and be polite (even when I'm displeased due to a difference in cultures/work standards), and I don't stiff them on price. I don't like paying "foreigner rates", but I'm not going to barter them down on an amount of money that barely matters to me.
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14-03-2019, 07:27
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#59
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 5,607
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals
Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360
you do realize genetically domestic dogs are no different from wolves.
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My "big, tough" lil' (16 lb) Boston Bulldog loves hearing comments like this. He seems to have more than a bit of a Napolean complex and, along with the typically fragile male ego, can always use the boost.
P.S. Just a little levity to maybe help the discussion not get too serious. No intent to minimize your post valhalla.
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14-03-2019, 07:54
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#60
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Slidell, La.
Boat: Morgan Classic 33
Posts: 2,845
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals
Wellll...
Technically, there's a rather large difference in the ability to successfully interbreed and being 'genetically no different'.
For instance, every wondered if that guilty look your pup gives you means he's feeling guilty?
Leaving aside how a dog would even be able to interpret what 'guilt' to a human is, 40,000+ years of co-evolution with humans has produced muscles in dogs' faces that are not present in wolves faces.
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