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Old 20-03-2019, 05:43   #121
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals

As long as what you consider universal morality / human rights is really well thought out, founded on some objective? standard?

If it's just the interpretation of some fossilized dogma by a time-place-conditioned priesthood, we're just going back to the old "civilizing the heathen" excuses for imperialism and cultural genocide.

Just the idea that "we" have the practical power (force by guns) to interfere, "reform" their immoral practices, is hugely problematic.

Humanity is (has been) progressing spiritually for sure, I think it's extreme hubris for one group to take upon themselves the direction and pace that takes for the Other groupings.

Focusing on where that energy can be directed to improve "our" own adherence to our values would IMO be more appropriate.

Within the sphere of ourselves and our friends & family is where we can appropriately have the most impact.
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Old 20-03-2019, 06:55   #122
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals

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we try to be humble and learning and greet each with a smile, firm hand shake and in English how nice it is to meet and how privileged we are to be in their country.
In some places a firm handshake is considered rude, or a limp handshake is customary. I think that we at least should TRY to learn something about the culture of the country we are about to visit before we get there. At the very least, how basic greetings work (in their language). A lot of times the locals will have preconceived negative stereotypes (sometimes positive but usually negative) about us which (due to our own ignorance and arrogance) we reinforce. To quote a line from a movie: "he's so haole, he doesn't even know he's haole". For most of the places that we can visit by boat, the locals already have an idea of what to expect (depending on which flag we fly). Our actions in these places and the impressions that we leave affect those that come after us just like our experience was affected by those that came before us. It is hard to shake off these impressions (especially when we don't know what they are) but a lot of times they boil down to us being rude cheapskates who dress sloppy and smell bad.
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Old 20-03-2019, 07:01   #123
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals

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Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
As long as what you consider universal morality / human rights is really well thought out, founded on some objective? standard?
If it's just the interpretation of some fossilized dogma by a time-place-conditioned priesthood, we're just going back to the old "civilizing the heathen" excuses for imperialism and cultural genocide...
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) is a milestone document in the history of human rights. Drafted by representatives with different legal and cultural backgrounds from all regions of the world, the Declaration was proclaimed by the United Nations General Assembly in Paris on 10 December 1948 (General Assembly resolution 217 A) as a common standard of achievements for all peoples and all nations. It sets out, for the first time, fundamental human rights to be universally protected
UDHR ➥ Universal Declaration of Human Rights | United Nations
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Old 20-03-2019, 07:38   #124
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals

(if you can set aside your morals...you have none)...

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Well said!
There IS a difference between respect & (im)moral ambiguity.
Too simple Gord!

Good people face moral dilemmas whenever they contemplate the terrible things social groups do in the name of their gods or beliefs.

Starts with loving their own children too much and manifests in extreme cases, towards a rationalized acceptance of genocide of "Others", which we comfortably tend to ignore.

Moral Dilemma:
"An ethical dilemma or ethical paradox is a decision-making problem between two possible moral imperatives, neither of which is unambiguously acceptable or preferable. The complexity arises out of the situational conflict in which obeying one would result in transgressing another.*Wikipedia
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Old 20-03-2019, 07:52   #125
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals

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Originally Posted by Jammer View Post
The owners of cruising boats tend as a rule to be relatively wealthy by the standards of their home countries.

The economic disparity between cruisers and those they encounter ashore in more remote areas is stark.
Your first statement is a false assumption. Not all cruisers are wealthy by the standards of their home countries. In fact, I would bet a fair number are not wealthy compared to others in their own country. Cruising is a lifestyle choice.

Your second statement is a false analogy. The cost of living varies around the world. Yes, most cruisers tend to have more money than the local populations they encounter. But, it is relative.

I have a home in Vietnam. It is a modest home (it would be a tiny home in the US). All my neighbors are Vietnamese. The closest ex-pat is about 10km away. When I am there I live the same lifestyle as my neighbors. I treat them with respect and dignity and welcome them into my home as they welcome me.

I do the same when cruising. Not just with local populations, but with other cruisers.

I am grateful for the things I have in this life...mostly grateful life itself. I share with others, volunteer where I can, and generally try to be helpful.

I do not compare cultural values; I accept and try to learn those of my hosts.

Moral comparisons and judgements are a foolish pursuit by people who subconsciously feel guilty, or who feel superior to others.

By the way...once my neighbor complained of indigestion, so I gave her some Tums, and it took care of the problem. Tums are not available in Vietnam, so now I take a couple of bottles with me when I go for the neighbors. In turn, they invite me to dinner. Is that a fair trade....in their minds they are receiving something far more valuable than the cost of a meal. For me...the dinners are a feast.
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Old 20-03-2019, 09:05   #126
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals

As long as we don't enslave or eradicate them, we're okay.
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Old 20-03-2019, 09:10   #127
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals

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Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
Not really.

We have been to many parts of the world that were very laid back and weren't that interesting to the west but over the years have been seen as a source of cheap labour for western factories and then, because the locals have money someone to push Marlborough, coca cola, starbucks and McDonalds onto and then flood with over the counter Valium and every other pharmaceutical known to man and of course, everything supplied in plastic bags.

Go out of the cities and it all goes back to a far simpler existence and faces seem much happier even though to the western eyes, they had little.
Those factories that see you buy from in your nice boat . people really need to see the footprint of their own lifes before being morally objective.
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Old 20-03-2019, 09:43   #128
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
If you were an aristocrat from a losing country that didn't fight too hard or if you were a soldier who signed up for 30yr of harsh life in the legions, you could gain advantages...look at the puppet rulers of India while Britain was in charge or some of the military companies created from local populations. While not identical, it was a very similar approach.

The vast majority of conquered peoples got to join the Roman Empire via slavery... I doubt they would see it any different and quite likely as worse as there was no pretense it was anything else.
Ah history. It's so subjective
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Old 20-03-2019, 09:49   #129
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals

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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) is a milestone document in the history of human rights. Drafted by representatives with different legal and cultural backgrounds from all regions of the world, the Declaration was proclaimed by the United Nations General Assembly in Paris on 10 December 1948 (General Assembly resolution 217 A) as a common standard of achievements for all peoples and all nations. It sets out, for the first time, fundamental human rights to be universally protected
UDHR ➥ Universal Declaration of Human Rights | United Nations
I've got nothing against the idea, but have never bought into the idea of a human right, let alone a universal one. As long as society is stable and our fore brains realize we go further if we get along then fine. But when things go to pot and people start using their lizard brains, there's no universal about it. It takes work and conscious effort to slam the door down on human fear responses. I just can't believe its innate or not subject to current cultural codes. Which takes me back to the Golden rule...
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Old 20-03-2019, 09:51   #130
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals

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Originally Posted by Discovery 15797 View Post
Your first statement is a false assumption. Not all cruisers are wealthy by the standards of their home countries. In fact, I would bet a fair number are not wealthy compared to others in their own country. Cruising is a lifestyle choice.

Your second statement is a false analogy. The cost of living varies around the world. Yes, most cruisers tend to have more money than the local populations they encounter. But, it is relative.

I have a home in Vietnam. It is a modest home (it would be a tiny home in the US). All my neighbors are Vietnamese. The closest ex-pat is about 10km away. When I am there I live the same lifestyle as my neighbors. I treat them with respect and dignity and welcome them into my home as they welcome me.

I do the same when cruising. Not just with local populations, but with other cruisers.

I am grateful for the things I have in this life...mostly grateful life itself. I share with others, volunteer where I can, and generally try to be helpful.

I do not compare cultural values; I accept and try to learn those of my hosts.

Moral comparisons and judgements are a foolish pursuit by people who subconsciously feel guilty, or who feel superior to others.

By the way...once my neighbor complained of indigestion, so I gave her some Tums, and it took care of the problem. Tums are not available in Vietnam, so now I take a couple of bottles with me when I go for the neighbors. In turn, they invite me to dinner. Is that a fair trade....in their minds they are receiving something far more valuable than the cost of a meal. For me...the dinners are a feast.
Start to finish, I found this to be a very interesting & illuminating post from someone who has obviously immersed him or herself into a vastly different society. Found it worth reading again. Thanks.
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Old 20-03-2019, 15:34   #131
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals

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Originally Posted by Thumbs Up View Post
In some places a firm handshake is considered rude, or a limp handshake is customary. I think that we at least should TRY to learn something about the culture of the country we are about to visit before we get there.

Such as the significance and acceptability, or lack thereof, of actions concerning head, feet, pointing gestures etc in many cultures.


You are the traveller with exposure to different cultures and an awareness of such things. The "local" will frequently have little or no concept of "different cultures", will take your unknowing breach of "etiquette" as rude, insulting or worse.
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Old 20-03-2019, 15:52   #132
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals

If they have had exposure to furriners, they'll have got used to the fact we're ignorant clods by now, usually NBD.

But some things like standing higher / stepping over people / touching someone's head / pointing or moving stuff with feet, can still be a bit shocking to them ( these from SE Asia)
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Old 20-03-2019, 17:28   #133
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals

I read this story today and immediately thought about this thread!



BBC - Travel - A journey to the Disappointment Islands


Because of this article I am so tempted to visit as well. But all the arguments that come up here in this thread apply. Theoretically a cruiser could show up with their own stores and water maker. Not putting a stress on the locals to provide for them. But then when they see the water maker? Would they want one for their own? After all, the coconut trees are being wiped away by beetles, so their goes their export, and a source for water. Would it be moral to provide one? Encourage more tourism?
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Old 20-03-2019, 22:17   #134
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals

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Originally Posted by Gadagirl View Post
I read this story today and immediately thought about this thread!



BBC - Travel - A journey to the Disappointment Islands


Because of this article I am so tempted to visit as well. But all the arguments that come up here in this thread apply. Theoretically a cruiser could show up with their own stores and water maker. Not putting a stress on the locals to provide for them. But then when they see the water maker? Would they want one for their own? After all, the coconut trees are being wiped away by beetles, so their goes their export, and a source for water. Would it be moral to provide one? Encourage more tourism?
They might want help with their water collection system: some atolls have a water lens, where fresh water floats on top of more saline water, the deeper you go the saltier it is. The lens needs to stay topped up. If the climate has changed so much it can't, the island is no longer viable for humans.

I really do think we should stay away from where we're not wanted. And, I really do think, we should ask what they want, what they need, not assume it's stuff we might have aboard.

All are worthy of our active compassion.

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Old 20-03-2019, 23:18   #135
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Re: The morality of interactions with the locals

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Moral Dilemma:
"An ethical dilemma or ethical paradox is a decision-making problem between two possible moral imperatives, neither of which is unambiguously acceptable or preferable. The complexity arises out of the situational conflict in which obeying one would result in transgressing another.*Wikipedia
No one ever said having morals is easy and yes, we struggle with moral dilemmas. That doesn't mean we should throw our morals out.

If it was always easy to live by our morals, we probably wouldn't even realize we had them. It' kind of like asking if we have a moral imperative to breathe...technically in most cultures suicide is considered wrong, so if you managed to hold your breath until you died, it would wrong but most people would never even consider it because breathing is just something you do and since you would typically pass out and start breathing long before you die, it's not a subject that would commonly come up as a moral issue.

Sometimes, it's about approach. If you see something locally culturally acceptable but clearly and unambiguously wrong morally, it's not always the most productive to immediately get in someone's face and rant & rave at them...in fact it usually has the exact opposite of the desired effect (a fair number of early missionaries got killed that way). That doesn't mean you chalk it up to their culture and say it's morally fine because it's their morals not yours. This can be a very challenging moral dilemma to determine what actions you are morally obligated to take.
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