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Old 13-04-2014, 19:59   #76
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Me making Monkey Joke. Perhaps only monkeys git it.







Combinatorial explosion of rules and procedures makes for more and more chance of mistake. Hence the ancient stuff, the simpler navigation that was used by ancestors, me thinks is more useful. And fascinating for a monkey like me.

Try sailing the English Channel today, with its huge volumes of traffic, most doing 18-25 knots , which just an astrolabe , or feeling you way along the rock strewn Brittany coast in fog without radar.

Today cruisers go and do what their predecessors never did, either cowed in fear, or holed up in port. It behoves them at least to fully understand the equipment they have onboard.

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Old 13-04-2014, 20:14   #77
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Try sailing the English Channel today, with its huge volumes of traffic, most doing 18-25 knots , which just an astrolabe , or feeling you way along the rock strewn Brittany coast in fog without radar.

Today cruisers go and do what their predecessors never did, either cowed in fear, or holed up in port. It behoves them at least to fully understand the equipment they have onboard.

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Nay. me not taw kin about silly english channel which is Welsh anyway, talking open ocean. I like radar too! Been in fog like you talk. Sweaty monkey.

One great thing about the ancient stuff is you learn HOW and WHY the more orderly stuff works. It makes sense!

But please, u can please send $300,000 for a new monkey boat and I will show you what i mean using 1/2 latitude rule or finding polaris covered under clouds by using and measuring from Cassiopeia with stick and string!

YAYAYAAY!@!@!@

Monkey good time!!!
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Old 13-04-2014, 20:29   #78
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The Evolution of Cruisers

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Nay. me not taw kin about silly english channel which is Welsh anyway, talking open ocean. I like radar too! Been in fog like you talk. Sweaty monkey.



One great thing about the ancient stuff is you learn HOW and WHY the more orderly stuff works. It makes sense!



But please, u can please send $300,000 for a new monkey boat and I will show you what i mean using 1/2 latitude rule or finding polaris covered under clouds by using and measuring from Cassiopeia with stick and string!



YAYAYAAY!@!@!@



Monkey good time!!!

Sometimes I wonder why I bother , but here goes.

Firstly ocean navigations easy, repeat after me, the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Measure Polaris with a piece of string and you get latitude , sail till you see the big land masses in front of you. Ok

Coastal sailing in bad weather , typical of high lattitude Northern European sailing with some f the worlds most dense traffic requires good skills to do it right, coastal navigation is the master craft of navigation. ( hint big rocks )

I've left out a bowl of peanuts.

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Old 13-04-2014, 20:36   #79
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

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----
I course don't agree with your second paragraph. Sometimes , the situation screws up , through no fault of your own ( aka RH ) , should we prove a point by letting people die, no I don't think so. Nor would I suspect would your lived ones on shore appreciate that sort of heroism
----
Dave - there is no "we" to prove a point, there are only the individuals who choose to sail without long distance comm equipment. I rather doubt they care about proving anything to anyone but themselves.

Any relationship between them and people on shore is not my business, nor, I dare say, anybody else's.

I never described this behavior as heroism, it's just the personal choice of some people.
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Old 13-04-2014, 20:43   #80
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The Evolution of Cruisers

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Dave - there is no "we" to prove a point, there are only the individuals who choose to sail without long distance comm equipment. I rather doubt they care about proving anything to anyone but themselves.

Any relationship between them and people on shore is not my business, nor, I dare say, anybody else's.

I never described this behavior as heroism, it's just the personal choice of some people.

I think very very few. In fact I can't think of any ,that don't sail the ocean without some way of calling for help. Most are loaded with comms.

In fact I'd say it's irresponsible not to have a way of contacting an MRCC. Hence at least when someone reports you delayed, you can call off the massive search that has begun to wind up to find you and explain to them , you'd prefer to quietly drown.

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Old 13-04-2014, 20:44   #81
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Coastal sailing in bad weather , typical of high lattitude Northern European sailing with some f the worlds most dense traffic requires good skills to do it right, coastal navigation is the master craft of navigation. ( hint big rocks )

Noooooo. I, a NE sailor, didn't know thaaaaaaat. You're be kid in` me right?

Wherz my peanuts?
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Old 13-04-2014, 20:50   #82
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Noooooo. I, a NE sailor, didn't know thaaaaaaat. You're be kid in` me right?



Wherz my peanuts?

If you can't find the peanuts , I don't hold put much hope on the ocean crossings either


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Old 13-04-2014, 21:14   #83
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

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And I would argue that a climber whose only plan B is to call for a rescue is not as good a climber as a climber who, on the same mountain, and WHILE PRESERVING A REALISTIC PROSPECT OF SURVIVING, sees that as plan C, or F, or whatever (or who lacks the means to call for a rescue at all)

I resort to analogy in the hope most people on a sailing forum will not exhibit the usual defensiveness about their own choices or values.

If this was a climbing forum, I might use a sailing analogy.
The climbing analogy is quite apropos I think. Look at how many people are climbing Everest- hook on to a line, and if you don't suffer from altitude sickness too badly and can afford some good porters or a support team, up you go. Circumnavigate? get a good boat, add some electronics and weather prediction, pick your windows and away you go.

Climbing Everest, certainly not my cup of tea, but the resistance of old time climbers to the new ones slightly resembles the same attitude amongst older sailers to those now buying boats with all the modcons. I would say the old mountain climbers have a better case to hold some disdain for the newbies.

On another note- Touching the Void- best ever survival movie based on real life (the dvd interviews were amazing). Any sailing equivalents? All is Lost certainly doesn't come close.
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Old 13-04-2014, 21:27   #84
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

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----
In fact I'd say it's irresponsible not to have a way of contacting an MRCC. Hence at least when someone reports you delayed, you can call off the massive search that has begun to wind up to find you ----
LMAO. Do you really think that anybody who sails in the manner I described files a float plan? Without a float plan nobody's going to report anyone overdue. Overdue from where?

I once read a self help book titled "How to live free in an unfree world". The worthwhile advice could be distilled to one sentence - Keep a low profile.
Otherwise you end up being discussed by the entire world. Ask RH.

The point of my posts was to show how some individuals were dealing with the world they live in, not to show how the world deals with them.
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Old 13-04-2014, 21:34   #85
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

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Deckofficer asked a great question, but unfortunately tied it into a hot emotional topic..

Yes but unfortunately the same serial posters are here as were on the RH topic and new vs. old topic. Maybe Saturn is in retrograde.
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Old 14-04-2014, 03:57   #86
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

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LMAO. Do you really think that anybody who sails in the manner I described files a float plan? Without a float plan nobody's going to report anyone overdue. Overdue from where?

I once read a self help book titled "How to live free in an unfree world". The worthwhile advice could be distilled to one sentence - Keep a low profile.
Otherwise you end up being discussed by the entire world. Ask RH.

The point of my posts was to show how some individuals were dealing with the world they live in, not to show how the world deals with them.
This reminds me of a cruiser I met once in Key Largo. He came with a friend I had hired to help rebuild my rudder. He was spanish speaking,- some english, 'just sailed in from Andros. Later I learned he was from Cuba, but not arriving in Florida for the purpose of immigration,- just unofficially passing through and soon out to the Bahamas. This guy was definitely "low profile". No one would be aware of his presence, absense or demise. There is no accounting of these cruisers.
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Old 14-04-2014, 04:25   #87
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

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I'm dead serious. And practice regularly. You don't have to learn and practice all the techniques. Pick a few you like. Similar to knots! Builds inner confidence.

The modern stuff important too, not to snuff it. Use both. You'll find the ancient stuff a lot of fun and good for quick and dirty.

I also learned to flintnap too. Fun and empowering.

Technology is a continual evolution of abstraction, ain't it? Engineers don't use Maxwell's equation to tune a circuit. Or lump sum. They use software. But engineers don't make good sailors. haha me thinks
Though I know (rusty) all of this stuff, I don't think we need to know it or should be required to. A prudent mariner has backups. That takes care of losing GPS position aboard the boat.

If the global GPS system goes down forever, you can simply make your way to land, best you can, if coastal. If transoceanic, the wind/current will get you there no matter what you do, assuming you chose the normal crossing routes. You have at the least a compass built into the boat as well as the rising and setting sun. Going east or west will get you across. If unmanned or abandoned vessels or liferafts make it, just drifting, so will you. Boaters have the least to worry about if the global gps system goes down. Be thankful you aren't one of the hundreds of airline pilots doing several hundred knots with 300 lives depending on you at that moment!
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Old 14-04-2014, 04:31   #88
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

Aircraft do not rely solely on GPS, they have several other nav choices
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Old 14-04-2014, 04:48   #89
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

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Aircraft do not rely solely on GPS, they have several other nav choices


So do boats, but that's not the point. The point is it's not at all serious in comparison for a boat,relative to the rest of the world, if the gps system goes down.

BTW, i believe planes are in the exact same "boat" transoceanic. There are no nav aids mid ocean for them either. They fly on "highways" in the sky at a certain altitude and certain latitude. I'm pretty sure there are no VORs or other ground based navaids mid ocean.
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Old 14-04-2014, 05:16   #90
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

Maybe it boils down to a short list of questions only individuals can answer. Here's one:

- Do I want to reach an accommodation with nature, or with technology ?

Some of the answers on this thread suggest I have to choose between the two: once I commit to depending on multiple inter-dependent, highly engineered solutions, some of which is off-site (and some of what is on-site, even crucial equipment, has no "user serviceable parts"), I can expect to have to relinquish skills to do with interpreting and predicting natural processes, and become a systems administrator, rather than anything I would recognise as a sailor.
A question of finite headspace.

I guess, each of the two options is potentially satisfying, in its own way.

But one of the two feels much like my day job, except the office moves around more, it's further to the suppliers, there's no broadband, and the frigging courier vans never make calls.
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