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Old 13-04-2014, 17:48   #61
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

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Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear View Post
The scariest statistic I have heard in the last few years is that there are more people alive in the world today, than have ever lived!! 7.2 billion and counting...
There are 100% more people on the earth than 1976. Whats scarier is I notice.
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Old 13-04-2014, 18:51   #62
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

Does it make you a better mountain climber to be able to get back down when you've lost some or all of your technical aids, unavailable to your predecessors?

Not sure, but it makes you alive.
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Old 13-04-2014, 18:55   #63
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

And I would argue that a climber whose only plan B is to call for a rescue is not as good a climber as a climber who, on the same mountain, and WHILE PRESERVING A REALISTIC PROSPECT OF SURVIVING, sees that as plan C, or F, or whatever (or who lacks the means to call for a rescue at all)

I resort to analogy in the hope most people on a sailing forum will not exhibit the usual defensiveness about their own choices or values.

If this was a climbing forum, I might use a sailing analogy.
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Old 13-04-2014, 18:59   #64
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

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Does it make you a better mountain climber to be able to get back down when you've lost some or all of your technical aids, unavailable to your predecessors?

Not sure, but it makes you alive.
I agree. I be serious that every sailor should be required to learn emergency navigation down cold -- learn stars, star stick, kamel, finding direction without a compass, yes lat AND LONG without aids. etc.
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Old 13-04-2014, 19:03   #65
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

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...
The scariest statistic I have heard in the last few years is that there are more people alive in the world today, than have ever lived!! ....
That doesn't tell us much about today, given that what you describe is characteristic of exponential growth.

If the rate of population growth had been constant since the dawn of humans, that statement would always have been as true as it is today.

Except, I guess, that is not strictly true: the rate of population growth in my last paragraph would have to be adjusted (increased in the distant past) for the fact that people live longer than they used to, meaning there's now a larger slice of birth years for the present population to draw from.

I do agree it's scary; any exponential process is scary and can only end in tears.

Economic growth and cancer are two other examples which spring easily to mind.
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Old 13-04-2014, 19:03   #66
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
I agree. I be serious that every sailor should be required to learn emergency navigation down cold -- learn stars, star stick, kamel, finding direction without a compass, yes lat AND LONG without aids. etc.

Not sure you're being serious. But the problem is unless you regularly use this stuff, you simply forget it. Secondly the information load that sailors have to learn grows each year. People have to learn how to use chart plotters ,GPS APs etc etc, it's inevitable stuff falls off the other side

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Old 13-04-2014, 19:08   #67
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

I'm guessing few would disagree that you had to be a better climber by any objective measure to get up (and, more importantly, down) Everest in 1930 than in 1950, in 1950 than in 1970, in 1970 than 1990, and in 1990 than 2010.

Why is it somehow more controversial to make the same claim for sailing?

I'm not necessarily making that claim, I haven't given it enough thought, but I sense it would be a lot more controversial.
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Old 13-04-2014, 19:09   #68
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

I think anyone sailing today , in waters covers by rescue services, would do well to always call them if you think you need them. It's foolish to risk life and limb preceding along the self rescue path, past the point of reason. Dead heros are just dead.

Rescue services would far prefer to receive your call at an early stage, and know where you are , crew conditions etc , in our case we often launch a lifeboat as a precaution just to make sure you are ok, it's much worse to only get a call when the events overwhelm you and it's then a race against time.

There is no evidence sailors in the past were any better those that failed simply died, at least today, we get them back.

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Old 13-04-2014, 19:16   #69
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
I'm guessing few would disagree that you had to be a better climber by any objective measure to get up (and, more importantly, down) Everest in 1930 than in 1950, in 1950 than in 1970, in 1970 than 1990, and in 1990 than 2010.

Why is it somehow more controversial to make the same claim for sailing?

I'm not necessarily making that claim, I haven't given it enough thought, but I sense it would be a lot more controversial.

I think few would disagree that Reinhold Messner was clearly a better climber then Hillary.

Equally , climbing Everest then was an extreme sport, one has to look at extreme climbing today. Clearly the art has developed the techniques have developed.

I mean look at free solo climbing, these guys are modern day rock stars with any real historical antecedent.

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Old 13-04-2014, 19:24   #70
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Not sure you're being serious. But the problem is unless you regularly use this stuff, you simply forget it. Secondly the information load that sailors have to learn grows each year. People have to learn how to use chart plotters ,GPS APs etc etc, it's inevitable stuff falls off the other side

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I'm dead serious. And practice regularly. You don't have to learn and practice all the techniques. Pick a few you like. Similar to knots! Builds inner confidence.

The modern stuff important too, not to snuff it. Use both. You'll find the ancient stuff a lot of fun and good for quick and dirty.

I also learned to flintnap too. Fun and empowering.

Technology is a continual evolution of abstraction, ain't it? Engineers don't use Maxwell's equation to tune a circuit. Or lump sum. They use software. But engineers don't make good sailors. haha me thinks
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Old 13-04-2014, 19:31   #71
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

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I mean look at free solo climbing, these guys are modern day rock stars with any real historical antecedent.
Alex Honnold - insane !
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Old 13-04-2014, 19:35   #72
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The Evolution of Cruisers

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
I'm dead serious. And practice regularly. You don't have to learn and practice all the techniques. Pick a few you like. Similar to knots! Builds inner confidence.

The modern stuff important too, not to snuff it. Use both. You'll find the ancient stuff a lot of fun and good for quick and dirty.

I also learned to flintnap too. Fun and empowering.

Technology is a continual evolution of abstraction, ain't it? Engineers don't use Maxwell's equation to tune a circuit. Or lump sum. They use software. But engineers don't make good sailors. haha me thinks

Engineers who sail are about THE most useful people to have on a boat. They all can fix everything with not much more then a sharpened match stick.

Personally, I'm a traditional navigation junkie. My favourite book in my library is my 1916 copy of Bowditch. Interesting then the navigator had about 100 pages to read through. Have a look at today's Bowditch !!

When it comes to learning , sailors acutely need firstly to learn to properly use the everyday tools they do have on board , before they learn the obscure exotic navigation ones. I meet sailors regularly that can't use radar, don't know VHF procedure , don't understand GMDSS , can't use modern plotting techniques etc etc etc.

Hence the modern sailor, unlike his historical counterpart, has a huge amount of learning if he is to use his vessels systems appropriately. Not to mention gaining a working understanding of diesels, AC and DC systems, plumbing, pumps, etc.

This leaves little room for the esoterica, hence they get ignored or suffer for " skill fade"

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Old 13-04-2014, 19:42   #73
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

I know a few people who are quite happy to utilize modern technology such as shown in boat construction, sails, gps, radar, a/p, etc.

The exception to this is any communication device that can transmit farther than a vhf radio.

These folk feel that if you have the temerity to go to sea in small craft, then you have no right to expect the rest of the world to drop everything and come rescue you when you screw up.

I don't know if that's progress, but I find such an attitude refreshing.
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Old 13-04-2014, 19:46   #74
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The Evolution of Cruisers

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I know a few people who are quite happy to utilize modern technology such as shown in boat construction, sails, gps, radar, a/p, etc.

The exception to this is any communication device that can transmit farther than a vhf radio.

These folk feel that if you have the temerity to go to sea in small craft, then you have no right to expect the rest of the world to drop everything and come rescue you when you screw up.

I don't know if that's progress, but I find such an attitude refreshing.

Yes but you'd be surprised at how few sailors can use radar properly for example. I teach radar courses and I'm often staggered at the is lack of understanding.

I course don't agree with your second paragraph. Sometimes , the situation screws up , through no fault of your own ( aka RH ) , should we prove a point by letting people die, no I don't think so. Nor would I suspect would your lived ones on shore appreciate that sort of heroism

Not to mention, that there are very few atheists in a foxhole under attack

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Old 13-04-2014, 19:53   #75
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Re: The Evolution of Cruisers

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Engineers who sail are about THE most useful people to have on a boat. They all can fix everything with not much more then a sharpened match stick.
Me making Monkey Joke. Perhaps only monkeys git it.

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
...
Hence the modern sailor, unlike his historical counterpart, has a huge amount of learning if he is to use his vessels systems appropriately. Not to mention gaining a working understanding of diesels, AC and DC systems, plumbing, pumps, etc.

This leaves little room for the esoterica, hence they get ignored or suffer for " skill fade"
Combinatorial explosion of rules and procedures makes for more and more chance of mistake. Hence the ancient stuff, the simpler navigation that was used by ancestors, me thinks is more useful. And fascinating for a monkey like me.
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