Stanley Paris Calls it Quits

[SVTatia]

Originally Posted by Horror Hotel

... Yawl can shoot me now, there's gotta be at least on person who agrees with me.

Horror, I totally agree with you!! Total BS.

Mind you, his son (Alan) finish the circumnavigation and it was the first Bermudian to do so, that was in the Around Alone Challenge of 2002, maybe he wanted to one up him?


Construction BTC Velocity

Paris forges ahead as New Year approaches | The Royal Gazette:Bermuda News

[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by Vasco

Not bad for an old guy. I didn't follow his voyage as I got put off by the no hydrocarbon PR BS. I think some guys in the olden days in wooden Folkboats might have gone further with using fewer hydrocarbons, period!

Joshua Slocum seems to have achieved this aim a couple centuries ago.

[nimblemotors]

It was estimated by Argonne National Labs that is takes equivalent of 325 gallons of gasoline to make a hybrid, about 100 more than a normal car. While that is a very significant amount,
it is not a large percentage if you consider a lifetime of 200,000 miles,
which is 4,000 gallons at 50mpg, compared to 5,700 gallons at 35mpg.
Let's not even consider a 15mpg SUV that burns 13,333 gallons.

The goal, as Stanley Paris attempted, is not to burn any at all, by using electricity, not gasoline, and get it from renewable sources, such as solar panels, wind generators, hydroelectric damns, sails,etc.

[nimblemotors]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

Joshua Slocum seems to have achieved this aim a couple centuries ago.

He had oil lamps if I recall...tsk tsk.

[Sand crab]

When he gets around to converting it to a cruiser I wonder where he's gonna sail with that draft. 8' 7" keel up and 14' 9" keel down! It's not really a Bahamas or ICW boat and they are right there close to St. Augustine. Great offshore, though.

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

On the Prius that has always been the argument, but I don't buy into that theory. One reason is the energy used in manufacturing whether it's source be Nuclear, Coal, or whatever I bet it's a lot more efficient than the point source generating that is required to replace say a wind generator or solar panels or a Prius. In other words I'm saying that to not have a solar panel or wind genertaor, that the fuel burned by your engine recharging batteries far exceeds the energy used to manufacture the panel or wind generator, but if your trying to match the efficiency of a power plant, then that is a whole different animal, and the offset in getting 54 MPG rather than say 35 MPG is more than the energy used in production due to how inefficient an internal combustion engine is.

You are mixing up two concepts. The lifetime energy consumption is just that: total energy used, which includes the (in)efficiencies of the conversion processes. Available alternatives are a different issue.

In the case of the Prius we mere mortals do not have available to us the energy budget for making and delivering the cars; Toyota has chosen to subsidize them in order to get out ahead and own the market (and boy is it working!) but the consumer price does not reflect the energy cost relative to other autos, even before the government subsidies. Also, the gasoline consumed does not reflect its energy cost because much of the price is actually taxes, and thus disadvantages energy consumption through gasoline versus the energy consumed during manufacture (not necessarily a bad thing). It is pretty easy to find autos that don't have the additional costs of hybrid technology that approach their efficiency, so it seems clear to me that for today the Prius is not a big win in terms of total lifetime system energy consumption. Which is not to say that it isn't a good deal for the consumer: who doesn't like being subsidized?

As for marine applications, the question is all about alternatives; the grid isn't available underway or at anchor. Solar is a good solution, and wind an OK solution. I have had solar aboard for 30 years and wind for 20; I strongly recommend solar for cruisers but not so much wind - YMMV. But the way to look at solar is a very long life battery: I am buying a battery that will return about as much energy as it costs to make. It makes sense because there is no better alternative, not that it is efficient. When Germany went crazy and subsidized solar panels to go on the roofs of houses in an area of cloudiness they weren't so much expanding energy production as storing today's (manufacturing) energy in something that will return it slowly over the years. It is simply not capable of amplifying the manufacturing energy by a significant amount, unlike say hydro. It is all about politics, not solving the energy problem.

Greg

[darylat8750]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I don't believe that either,
Same is said for our Prius, people say that they don't save energy and that's just nonsense. For the 120,000 miles we've had it so far it has averaged 54 MPG. That means it's burned 2,222 gl.
Average SUV that gets 15 MPG would have burned 8,000 gl. That's an almost 6,000 gl difference. Prius doesn't save energy? That's nonsense.

You don't compare a Prius to an SUV. You compare a Prius to a Corolla or Civic.

[rebel heart]

That's like guys who rebuild everything on the boat and buy tons of provisions, then don't spend any money for a couple of months, thereby "not spending any money".

[Boatguy30]

SO you reckon Toyota looses 10K or more on every Prius?

SURE

[Horror Hotel]

My auto enthusiast friends have a habit of giving the finger to anyone driving a Prius, just habit. Most Prius drivers have a chip on their shoulder and think their doing some huge favor for the world. Driving a Prius is more about being noticed and telling others that you listen to NPR. The result is they seem to think that us high HP guys ( muscle car, turbo Audi's, diesel trucks that haul ass) are destroying the planet. Total BS. Next time you see one, tell'em their #1.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by Horror Hotel

My auto enthusiast friends have a habit of giving the finger to anyone driving a Prius, just habit. Most Prius drivers have a chip on their shoulder and think their doing some huge favor for the world. Driving a Prius is more about being noticed and telling others that you listen to NPR. The result is they seem to think that us high HP guys ( muscle car, turbo Audi's, diesel trucks that haul ass) are destroying the planet. Total BS. Next time you see one, tell'em their #1.

Way to stereo type....

[Horror Hotel]

If the shoe fits......

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

The usual folly of the carbon free sorts is that they neglect to include the hydrocarbons used to make the resins, smelt the metals, mine the raw stock, etc. Windmills typically consume more energy than they ever produce if you include the precursors and maintenance. If they are at sea, its 3X worse. On the ethanol deal, no one ever counts the fertilizer & ammonia made from reformed petroleum derivatives (all outside the US), the cost of it manufacture, the cost of shipping, the cost of farming, the loss to the food reserves, increased resulting cost of food worldwide or the cost of operating the fermenter and distillation. It would be far more efficient to burn the cornstalks in an ordinary coal plant and feed the poor.

Remember the eco, animal terrorists of the 60s & 70s wearing leather belts & shoes?

The real inconvenient truth is you don't get something for nothing. Grandparents were right after all.

I don't know where you found this information, but it is either very out of date or just wrong. The relavent number is called EREI (energy returned on energy invested), and both solar and wind (commercial at least) generate far more power than they take to install.

Solar PV panes have a EREI of 6.8, wind 18.

Where it gets crappy is ethanol corn at 1.3, or biodesel again at 1.3.

On a boat things are very different since the alternative is not a grid level generator, but a small diesel.

[TEE]

I am glad he decided to abandon under the circumstances. He probably had between two to three million dollars in this venture, and was on a very risky trip. Even the Open 60s that travel the southern ocean have engines which are required for safety. Its a sad thing to see such an innovative approach fail. The truth is on any crossing of the magnitude he was taking, equipment and material failure can be expected. Professional ocean racers with nearly unlimited budgets, new boats and experience run into the same sorts of failures he mentioned on his web site. But most ocean racers have somebody that can come get them is worse comes to worse.

[CarinaPDX]

Stumble: good info

It looks like it came from the Wikipedia article. And as you noted, refers to commercial energy.

So now I get to feel even better about my solar panels.

I don't think the numbers quite reflect the reality of wind generators for cruisers. In my experience they are rarely useful in anchorages, because anchorages are usually in the lee. On passage though they are fantastic.

And yes, ethanol and biodiesel are just terrible ideas, at least at the current state of technology.

Greg