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Old 11-01-2014, 18:09   #31
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Re: Stanley Paris calls it quits

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The usual folly of the carbon free sorts is that they neglect to include the hydrocarbons used to make the resins, smelt the metals, mine the raw stock, etc. Windmills typically consume more energy than they ever produce if you include the precursors and maintenance. If they are at sea, its 3X worse. On the ethanol deal, no one ever counts the fertilizer & ammonia made from reformed petroleum derivatives (all outside the US), the cost of it manufacture, the cost of shipping, the cost of farming, the loss to the food reserves, increased resulting cost of food worldwide or the cost of operating the fermenter and distillation. It would be far more efficient to burn the cornstalks in an ordinary coal plant and feed the poor.

Remember the eco, animal terrorists of the 60s & 70s wearing leather belts & shoes?

The real inconvenient truth is you don't get something for nothing. Grandparents were right after all.


Almost all forms of commonly used modern energy production are zero sum, using more energy than they produce. Except solar and OTEC, which is really just a huge form of solar with many advantageous by products...


Ocean thermal energy conversion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 11-01-2014, 18:13   #32
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Re: Stanley Paris calls it quits

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I dont know if you have been following his blog but he got pretty beat up last week,unable to use one arm etc, pretty tough for a 77 year old !!!!
Ive been reading about this guy for at least a few years and when I saw his design and idea about switching out interiors I thought that the whole thing was over the top.. all the self promotion and fast and loose with large amounts of money when most are trying to figure out how to get the next bill paid just felt out of place ,it was not a pleasure to read his stories, of course some guy with millions of dollars could have related and enjoyed it...
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Old 11-01-2014, 18:18   #33
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Re: Stanley Paris calls it quits

I shudder to think how much he invested in that boat. It would have to be around $3m
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Old 11-01-2014, 18:22   #34
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Re: Stanley Paris calls it quits

I find it hard to believe a wind generator does not have a net positive impact after a few years.
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Old 11-01-2014, 18:26   #35
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Re: Stanley Paris calls it quits

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Ive been reading about this guy for at least a few years and when I saw his design and idea about switching out interiors I thought that the whole thing was over the top.. all the self promotion and fast and loose with large amounts of money when most are trying to figure out how to get the next bill paid just felt out of place ,it was not a pleasure to read his stories, of course some guy with millions of dollars could have related and enjoyed it...
He gave an interview to the local paper and said there was a 2-3% chance of failure! a real wiz with numbers like all other private education types.

Also, I believe he is 74. I guess when you sleep what 18 hours?? every 24 things may tend to fall apart with all the crash gybes and what not when you're a sleep. Helps to know how to sail as well.

It's all a joke anyway, how much carbon did Dodge Morgan have? Who did his satellite weather routing? What about Francis Chestester at certainly a comparable biological age sailing with sextant and kerosene lamps???
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Old 11-01-2014, 18:30   #36
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Re: Stanley Paris calls it quits

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I find it hard to believe a wind generator does not have a net positive impact after a few years.

I don't believe that either,
Same is said for our Prius, people say that they don't save energy and that's just nonsense. For the 120,000 miles we've had it so far it has averaged 54 MPG. That means it's burned 2,222 gl.
Average SUV that gets 15 MPG would have burned 8,000 gl. That's an almost 6,000 gl difference. Prius doesn't save energy? That's nonsense.
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Old 11-01-2014, 18:33   #37
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Re: Stanley Paris calls it quits

EarthRace went around the world using biodiesel, but maybe they had zippo lighters with butane or alcohol stoves?
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Old 11-01-2014, 18:39   #38
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Re: Stanley Paris calls it quits

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I don't believe that either,
Same is said for our Prius, people say that they don't save energy and that's just nonsense. For the 120,000 miles we've had it so far it has averaged 54 MPG. That means it's burned 2,222 gl.
Average SUV that gets 15 MPG would have burned 8,000 gl. That's an almost 6,000 gl difference. Prius doesn't save energy? That's nonsense.
You can't compare a Prius with a SUV. Compare it to a Sentra or a Corolla. Then you have to factor in purchase price. Apples and oranges. You might as well compare a Ferrari to a Vespa. No doubt a Prius uses less gasoline but is it cost effective? Is it even a wash?
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Old 11-01-2014, 18:48   #39
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Re: Stanley Paris calls it quits

OK, the statement that used to be tossed around was a Prius used as much energy as a Hummer.
But money is a whole different thing and will differ for different people of course, if you don't drive much it's not cheaper due to the higher purchase price, especially if you financed because then you have to factor the finance charge in to. My wife primarily drives our Prius and she teaches school in a community that is 40 miles away, plus we drive the thing on all trips etc, I even cave dive out of it.
Ours is a 2010 and we have had it for a little over three years. So far if you use $3.50 as an average the fuel savings has been $20,223. Now I expect to get three more years out of the thing at least (fingers crossed) and if you use the same numbers, the little car will have saved over $40,000 in fuel. They don't even cost that much, so in a way you could argue that the car is free, or at least paid for itself in fuel cost offset.
Yeah, I know it's hard to believe, but check my numbers I may have made a mistake.
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Old 11-01-2014, 18:49   #40
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Re: Stanley Paris calls it quits

Why can't I compare it against a SUV? SUV's are the most common and I'll wager 99% of them don't carry more than our Prius can.
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Old 11-01-2014, 18:51   #41
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Re: Stanley Paris calls it quits

The question re: Prius is total lifetime energy consumption. About half of the lifetime energy use of a traditional auto is in the construction, and for the Prius it will no doubt be higher (at least for now). So the reduction of fuel consumption has to be compared with the additional construction energy. My understanding is that for now it is not advantageous but of course the technology is young so the future may be different.

Thirty years ago solar panels did not return as much energy over the rated life as it took to build them. I suppose at this point it is positive, but not hugely so. Their value is in not having to extend the grid more than any intrinsic efficiency.

I don't know about the wind charging, but not a surprise if that is not a big win either. Unfortunately for all of these situations the pricing mechanisms are broken so it makes it hard to know. By broken I mean taxes and subsidies obscure the energy reality.

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Old 11-01-2014, 18:58   #42
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Re: Stanley Paris calls it quits

My understanding about wind generators (the big ones) is that they break down often and are very expensive to repair. The major problem I believe is in the transmission.
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Old 11-01-2014, 18:58   #43
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Re: Stanley Paris calls it quits

Yes, carbon should be taxed. Will quickly figure out the best form of power.
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Old 11-01-2014, 19:09   #44
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Re: Stanley Paris calls it quits

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The question re: Prius is total lifetime energy consumption. About half of the lifetime energy use of a traditional auto is in the construction, and for the Prius it will no doubt be higher (at least for now). So the reduction of fuel consumption has to be compared with the additional construction energy. My understanding is that for now it is not advantageous but of course the technology is young so the future may be different.

Thirty years ago solar panels did not return as much energy over the rated life as it took to build them. I suppose at this point it is positive, but not hugely so. Their value is in not having to extend the grid more than any intrinsic efficiency.

I don't know about the wind charging, but not a surprise if that is not a big win either. Unfortunately for all of these situations the pricing mechanisms are broken so it makes it hard to know. By broken I mean taxes and subsidies obscure the energy reality.

Greg

On the Prius that has always been the argument, but I don't buy into that theory. One reason is the energy used in manufacturing whether it's source be Nuclear, Coal, or whatever I bet it's a lot more efficient than the point source generating that is required to replace say a wind generator or solar panels or a Prius. In other words I'm saying that to not have a solar panel or wind genertaor, that the fuel burned by your engine recharging batteries far exceeds the energy used to manufacture the panel or wind generator, but if your trying to match the efficiency of a power plant, then that is a whole different animal, and the offset in getting 54 MPG rather than say 35 MPG is more than the energy used in production due to how inefficient an internal combustion engine is.
A German neighbor had a perfect explanation. He said in Germany that statistics were like a Lady of the Evening, if your paying, she will do or say whatever you want
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Old 11-01-2014, 19:09   #45
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Re: Stanley Paris calls it quits

A Prius still gets 100% of its energy through burning hydrocarbons, as it runs on 100% gasoline to generate its electricity.

Stanley Paris was attempting to use none on his RTW voyage.

You know, if he just had a couple more people on board, he wouldn't need his electric autopilot. Seems many have obsession with solo sailing, because it such a stupid thing to do I guess?
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