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Old 02-11-2016, 12:55   #16
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Re: Some Recent Thermal Images from Marine Surveys

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Originally Posted by hsi88 View Post
I bought the Seek Reveal Thermal Imager (not the phone attachment) for about $300. As mentioned, one has to have some prior knowledge to interpret what they are seeing. As I'm a beginner at this, I use this in conjunction with a pin-less moisture meter and the old tapping brass hammer to determine what is going on under the fiberglass. Next time I drop by one of the boats, I will try to get some good shots using areas I know have rot and water intrusion.
Pls do post the images, they are always interesting. What is more interesting than images of areas that you know have water/rot are images of areas that you did not know or suspect that there was water/rot but by using the FLIR imaging you found them.
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Old 02-11-2016, 13:06   #17
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Re: Some Recent Thermal Images from Marine Surveys

What would be really nice is to see some thermal image shots and diagnosis compared against repairs.
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Old 02-11-2016, 17:37   #18
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Re: Some Recent Thermal Images from Marine Surveys

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I thought I would post some thermal images I have taken over the past few months to show my fellow boaters things that I have found in marine surveys I have come across in the field.
Thank you John - most interesting, and I am sure many of us look forward to further examples as they come to hand.

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Old 02-11-2016, 18:46   #19
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Re: Some Recent Thermal Images from Marine Surveys

Super nice. I may learn this next. How much is a good gear kit?

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Old 03-11-2016, 05:51   #20
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Re: Some Recent Thermal Images from Marine Surveys

Fascinating stuff - it would be interesting to know what the resolution to the problems might be too! We have a sailing school with 3 older French monohulls (all 1990s) - unfortunately its an occupational hazard that students sometimes "Get it wrong" and the boats do take quite a pounding from time to time - they are worked much harder than your average cruising boat! Visually there are no obvious signs of keel problems,for example, and they are hauled regularly and inspected, but to be able to see what goes on inside the hull would be amazing! It would also be good to know if any soft spots were developing on the decks without intrusive inspection!
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Old 03-11-2016, 10:01   #21
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Re: Some Recent Thermal Images from Marine Surveys

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.... to be able to see what goes on inside the hull would be amazing! It would also be good to know if any soft spots were developing on the decks without intrusive inspection!
Thermal imaging does not show you anything on the inside. It shows you the apparent temperature differences on the surface only. It is up to the person analyzing the image to propose what it means inside. Thermal imaging is cool, but it shouldn't be oversold.
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Old 03-11-2016, 22:03   #22
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Re: Some Recent Thermal Images from Marine Surveys

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Thermal imaging does not show you anything on the inside. It shows you the apparent temperature differences on the surface only. It is up to the person analyzing the image to propose what it means inside. Thermal imaging is cool, but it shouldn't be oversold.
This is my take on it too. It seems a little like smoke and mirrors on the part of the surveyor. If a floor pan appeared loose from the hull, I would merely take a screwdriver inside to see if it actually was.
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Old 03-11-2016, 22:18   #23
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Re: Some Recent Thermal Images from Marine Surveys

I keep a BS flag around for just this kind of claim. I have dealt with thermal scans on switchgear and such for many years and while it does have a limited use, it is no magic mirror.

Break out the sawzall. Pictures of the hidden damage revealed would go a long way.
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Old 03-11-2016, 22:25   #24
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Re: Some Recent Thermal Images from Marine Surveys

It takes many, many hours of practice and very expensive courses and training to properly use a thermal camera and resolution is key ..... something you can't buy for $300 dollars. I have some thoughts on moisture meters and thermal cameras (with photos) and their weaknesses used in marine surveys posted on Moisture Meter Mythology & Thermal Imaging
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Old 06-11-2016, 08:58   #25
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Re: Some Recent Thermal Images from Marine Surveys

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Thermal imaging does not show you anything on the inside. It shows you the apparent temperature differences on the surface only. It is up to the person analyzing the image to propose what it means inside. Thermal imaging is cool, but it shouldn't be oversold.
It is true that thermal imaging does work by sensing thermal radiation (heat) but if you have the proper training and experience, yes, you can interpret what is under the fiberglass as long as you know how the boat is built and with what materials to better understand the thermal images. This is done by understanding how the vessel is built but also understanding thermal conduction.

Case in point: I had a survey on a Whitewater center console that had anomalies running on the port side bottom. I know these particular boats had aft saddle fuel tanks and with the anomalies I was getting, I suggested either water or fuel collected around the tank. After the vessel was purchased and cut out, it was exactly as I had said, water / fuel around the port side saddle tank once it was removed. Below is the thermal image taken of the port aft hull (from the bottom) and the digital image of the discovery of the water / fuel around the corroded aluminum fuel tank once it was removed:





So yes, thermal imaging can interpret what is under the fiberglass or inside the boat if properly applied.
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Old 06-11-2016, 09:35   #26
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Re: Some Recent Thermal Images from Marine Surveys

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So yes, thermal imaging can interpret what is under the fiberglass or inside the boat if properly applied.
Thermal imaging does not interpret anything. It is the analyst that does the interpreting and one analyst will interpret the images differently than another.
I used to develop calibration systems and code for Hughes Aircraft and then for FLIR when Hughes transfered their thermal imaging products to FLIR and have seen very interesting successful use of thermal imaging as well misuse and snake oil. As I said above thermal imaging is cool but shouldn't be oversold. It is very interpretive heavy and the artificial coloring has a lot of wow factor.
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Old 06-11-2016, 10:01   #27
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Re: Some Recent Thermal Images from Marine Surveys

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Thermal imaging does not interpret anything. It is the analyst that does the interpreting and one analyst will interpret the images differently than another.
I used to develop calibration systems and code for Hughes Aircraft and then for FLIR when Hughes transfered their thermal imaging products to FLIR and have seen very interesting successful use of thermal imaging as well misuse and snake oil. As I said above thermal imaging is cool but shouldn't be oversold. It is very interpretive heavy and the artificial coloring has a lot of wow factor.
I agree that it is the interpretor in the end that will prove or dis-prove anything in a thermal image. One of my rants in this business is untrained surveyors or technicians just using this technology as a means to sell their services (and do not really know what they are doing or even seeing with the camera), and many times I have been called as a second opinion for poor thermography work. It takes time, consistent training, and a lot of money in training schools and proper thermal imaging equipment to correctly apply thermal imaging into an inspection. Some surveyors I know cut corners with cheap equipment or even lie about training or certifications they never had to get thermal imaging work! Trust me it shows in the end in their work product.

Thermal imaging is not the only tool I use when surveying or assesing damage, but it is a strong tool to make others understand the extent of a problem (or non-existence of one) when the client can actually see a thermal image that backs your finding.
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Old 06-11-2016, 10:48   #28
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Re: Some Recent Thermal Images from Marine Surveys

Interesting read. This stuff is like porn for Engineers! Leaving the in-depth interpretation/analysis of hull thermography out of it. At a minimum, thermography is useful as an indicator that something is happening which may need to be addressed. Thanks for the post Cap'n John. Now going to spend hours and hours researching this when I should be getting some sleep before work tomorrow! LOL
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Old 06-11-2016, 11:18   #29
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Re: Some Recent Thermal Images from Marine Surveys

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Originally Posted by SuenosAzules View Post
I agree that it is the interpretor in the end that will prove or dis-prove anything in a thermal image. One of my rants in this business is untrained surveyors or technicians just using this technology as a means to sell their services (and do not really know what they are doing or even seeing with the camera), and many times I have been called as a second opinion for poor thermography work. It takes time, consistent training, and a lot of money in training schools and proper thermal imaging equipment to correctly apply thermal imaging into an inspection. Some surveyors I know cut corners with cheap equipment or even lie about training or certifications they never had to get thermal imaging work! Trust me it shows in the end in their work product.

Thermal imaging is not the only tool I use when surveying or assesing damage, but it is a strong tool to make others understand the extent of a problem (or non-existence of one) when the client can actually see a thermal image that backs your finding.
John
Pretty sure we are in agreement on the use. One good about using the imaging on small craft is that you can be fairly close up allowing the use of low-resolution equipment and still get possibly useful results. Using thermal imaging while airborne for example and then trying to interpret sub-pixel info can lead some quick self-delusion.

So how much more does it cost to do a pre-purchase survey with thermal imaging vs without?
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Old 06-11-2016, 12:22   #30
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Re: Some Recent Thermal Images from Marine Surveys

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John
Pretty sure we are in agreement on the use. One good about using the imaging on small craft is that you can be fairly close up allowing the use of low-resolution equipment and still get possibly useful results. Using thermal imaging while airborne for example and then trying to interpret sub-pixel info can lead some quick self-delusion.

So how much more does it cost to do a pre-purchase survey with thermal imaging vs without?
It would be the same (about $22.00 a foot). I do not charge extra for thermal imaging. It only helps me do a better job.
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