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Old 05-03-2013, 16:29   #1
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Sailing and Civility--Incongruous bedfellows?

Have you ever been sailing well offshore and another sailboat approaches on a parallel course and passes closely upwind without acknowledging you, stalls your boat and sails on? Have you ever approached a harbour mouth on a steady dedicated course and another sailboat under power cuts directly across your path and into the channel? Have you ever been anchored away from the crowd and another sailboat drops his hook on top of you when he could have anchored safely and securely at a more respectable distance? Have you ever waited patiently off a marina fairway to refuel or pump out and were the next in line and another sailboat shoots in ahead of you? Have you ever seen a sailboat damage another's boat in a marina and keep going? If you haven't experienced any of these things, you are either exceptionally lucky or haven't spent much time on the water. The sad fact is that what we are losing in our society is civility--an act of consideration for others. We live in a "Me" world where as long as our needs and desires are fulfilled, we callously disrespect and ignore the feelings of others. I want it and that's all that matters. Sailing and civility--incongrous bedfellows? What do you think?
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Old 05-03-2013, 16:36   #2
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Re: Sailing and Civility--Incongruous bedfellows?

in any walk of life their will allways be arseholes,but generally in the cruising community they are few and far between,and those that are get a rep that travels 1000's of miles in front of them.

notable exceptions are some individuals that travel in yacht rallies,where i guess the herd mentality give's them a sense of entitlement over and above the common or garden yottie.....................
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Old 05-03-2013, 16:45   #3
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Re: Sailing and Civility--Incongruous bedfellows?

most of the souls i found to be jerks are marina dwellers, not cruising sailors--they cruise and anchor one time per year
on the other hand, the long term cruisers i have known cannot or couldnt die without someone knowing the same day--all the way from barra de navidad to 400 miles north --radio is a great tool to spread word, and yes, words are spread fast.
the coleta del mar break in was public that same morning. radio. we heard it that morning on vhf 22 before net.

so much gossip, such fast transport of info. atoll said it well.
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Old 05-03-2013, 17:01   #4
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Re: Sailing and Civility--Incongruous bedfellows?

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...Have you ever approached a harbour mouth on a steady dedicated course and another sailboat under power [or sail, but not with right of way] cuts directly across your path and into the channel?
... welcome to my world, the world of the smaller sailboat. We routinely get crowded or just plain run-down by sail or power boats of 30+ ft, half a mile or more from shore or any restricted channel... yes I'm referring only to when we're under sail, and the stand-on vessel. It seems that any on-water maneuver that might cause ice to touch the side of a glass is frowned upon, unless they risk life, limb or bar privileges.

So, yeah. There are sailing idiots. There are also sailing forum idiots. And anyone can go 'idiot' if annoyed enough. So I have to ask the OP... why are there so many troll-friendly topics on this forum, such as this one? Do you genuinely want to discuss... idiots, or provide a springboard for some? It seems like a lame topic to me.

Sorry if this comes off crabby... I love the technical, voyage or advice threads here, but I'm just disappointed at some of the crap that gets tossed around here in general topics, that I don't see popping up in other sailing forums. Civility starts at home.

Are the squabbles here a hint that cruising is actually boring for some?
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Old 05-03-2013, 17:23   #5
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Re: Sailing and Civility--Incongruous bedfellows?

"So I have to ask the OP... why are there so many troll-friendly topics on this forum, such as this one? Do you genuinely want to discuss... idiots, or provide a springboard for some? It seems like a lame topic to me." Lake Effect

LakeEffect, I think a forum can be many things to many people. Some are only interested in the mechanics of sailing. Others participate in forums on food, entertainment, jokes, women,and reading, to name a few. Others are interested in the history of sailing and there are those that want to relate their on water experiences to others. I think the various forums give Cruiserforum a place above many other lesser sites whose only focus is "What's the best anchor," "Cored vs. Solid," or "The best VHF." And finally, things you deem "lame" or "troll friendly" may be your own personal prejudices at work or perhaps your lack of desire to engage in more serious intellectual discussions. Nonetheless, thanks for your feedback. Good luck and good sailing.
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Old 05-03-2013, 17:25   #6
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Re: Sailing and Civility--Incongruous bedfellows?

I've also seen sailors drop everything, then work like dogs for hours saving another's boat that has gone up on a reef--someone they had never met before. I had another sailor ask me what was wrong, and when I told him he ran below, found the $300 part, and then tossed it over to me and told me to catch up to him at the next harbor. I didn't have time to get his name or number, but managed to find him later. I've had marina people toss me their car keys when I asked where the nearest supermarket was. I've arrived just as someone was closing up for the day at a sleepy yacht club I had never been to, and he gave me the keys so I could open the club house and use the showers. I've had yacht clubs offer me free dockage the first time I visited. So, it cuts both ways. Karma comes back around.
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Old 05-03-2013, 18:09   #7
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Re: Sailing and Civility--Incongruous bedfellows?

I think there is very little incivility while sailing. But I bet it all depends on where one is sailing. The more crowded the space, the bigger your chances of running into an uneducated person now and then.

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Old 05-03-2013, 18:09   #8
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Re: Sailing and Civility--Incongruous bedfellows?

I've seen most of that, and then, as Kettlewell says, just as much or more amazing generosity and big-heartedness.

But one thing I would like to see more of is a little tolerance. Some of those offenders are, in fact, idiots or jerks. Others, though, are just inexperienced or unskilled.

I think we forget too often how easy it is to start sailing, and how much of a challenge it can be to become genuinely competent and knowledgeable about it. A lot of breaches of common cruising etiquette may simply spring from folks who haven't yet learned that etiquette, or aren't quite sure how to execute it.

Certainly most of the problems I have had with folks in anchorages (and vice versa, no doubt!) have been the result of inexperience and uncertainty. They don't know what is appropriate. Sometimes they anchored too close because they couldn't judge the distances, and in at least one case, because they figured I knew where the safest spot was (their mistake!).

I know the people weren't just jerks because I got to talk with them later; it's not so easy when you're crossing paths out in the ocean. But because of that, and because of my own undeniable limits, I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt these day (admittedly, often after a short outburst of expletives).
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Old 05-03-2013, 18:19   #9
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Re: Sailing and Civility--Incongruous bedfellows?

Kettlewell has it right. Keep the glass half full and throw the half empty glass overboard (biodegradable of course). It just isn't worth hanging onto what cannot be changed.
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Old 05-03-2013, 18:26   #10
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Re: Sailing and Civility--Incongruous bedfellows?

Pretty much yes to all of this. But no different from drivers and pedestrians and people. They are selfish and oblivious or willfully oblivious. It always amazes me how people act as if there is no one else around and could care less if they endanger or inconvenience or delay someone.

I want to think that cruising sailors are a better lot.... but I have no stats for that. I do know that power boats are the ones guilty of leaving nasty wakes and choosing to ALWAYS pass your bow.

So many A**holes and so little time.
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Old 06-03-2013, 07:42   #11
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Re: Sailing and Civility--Incongruous bedfellows?

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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
LakeEffect, I think a forum can be many things to many people.

... things you deem "lame" or "troll friendly" may be your own personal prejudices at work or perhaps your lack of desire to engage in more serious intellectual discussions.
Yes, of course. Though, I think you may have observed that I can do 'serious' when it's called for.

Surely, though, you've seen the incivility break out here in the general 'discuss'-type threads, especially the hot-button stuff...? And I honestly don't see much possibility for serious intellectual discussion in a thread about "Sailing and civility--incongruous bedfellows?"

But as you observe, it's my own opinion, that others may not share.

Cheers.
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Old 06-03-2013, 07:44   #12
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Re: Sailing and Civility--Incongruous bedfellows?

Like most of the others, I've seen these things now and then. Like most of the others, not nearly as often as in other walks of life.

With one exception. People ALWAYS seem to want to anchor right on top of others. Even when I have deliberately chosen a spot that was NOT the best in the anchorage, because I was hoping for a bit of privacy, the next boat always seems to come in and anchor right next to me. I attribute this to the herd instinct in people. Like sheep, most have a desperate need to find a crowd and stay in it.

And, of course, powerboaters seem to have a general disregard for sailboats, and especially for the affect their wake has on us.
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Old 06-03-2013, 08:14   #13
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And, of course, powerboaters seem to have a general disregard for sailboats, and especially for the affect their wake has on us.
I wish they would disregard me... instead of veering off course and heading for me...
I also hate folk who DEMAND right of way...
EG... sailing out off Poole coming down the main channel N of Brownsea island and in the small boats channel.wind SW and flying main and jib.
There was heavy traffic coming back in (5.30pm Sat) and this ass in a 40ftr determined to sail in was tacking back and forth using the main and small boat channel... I could see we were going to clash but could not turn to port without running into the path of other boats and staboard would put me into the mud on a falling tide.. not a thrilling prospect...
Anyway.. he tacked and came straight at me... grim faced and clenched jaw... ****.. thought he was gonna ram me but I held firm.
At the last minute he tacked and then proceeded to hurl abuse and that I should go to sailing school and learn about right of way etc..
If the owner had not been my crew on that delivery I'da turned round followed him in for an uncivilised discussion on the subject...
Last man standing has right of way..
Yup... 20yrs ago you passed a boat in the middle of the Biscay you had a chat... swapped news on weather behind and ahead etc..
Today your likely to not even get a wave... or they'll detour to look at the wierdo 200miles from land in a 21ftr and take pictures..

Edit.. for those who don't know the channel in Poole runs E-W before doglegging S and then E out of the entrance..
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Old 06-03-2013, 08:53   #14
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... welcome to my world, the world of the smaller sailboat. We routinely get crowded or just plain run-down by sail or power boats of 30+ ft, half a mile or more from shore or any restricted channel... yes I'm referring only to when we're under sail, and the stand-on vessel. It seems that any on-water maneuver that might cause ice to touch the side of a glass is frowned upon, unless they risk life, limb or bar privileges.

So, yeah. There are sailing idiots. There are also sailing forum idiots. And anyone can go 'idiot' if annoyed enough. So I have to ask the OP... why are there so many troll-friendly topics on this forum, such as this one? Do you genuinely want to discuss... idiots, or provide a springboard for some? It seems like a lame topic to me.

Sorry if this comes off crabby... I love the technical, voyage or advice threads here, but I'm just disappointed at some of the crap that gets tossed around here in general topics, that I don't see popping up in other sailing forums. Civility starts at home.

Are the squabbles here a hint that cruising is actually boring for some?
It's still winter in some areas & that leads to some people spending more time on the net than their boats.
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Old 06-03-2013, 09:09   #15
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Re: Sailing and Civility--Incongruous bedfellows?

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Certainly most of the problems I have had with folks in anchorages (and vice versa, no doubt!) have been the result of inexperience and uncertainty.
Agreed. Inexperience and uncertainty always seem to feed off each other.

I always try to pass smaller boats to leeward, knowing that my 1,000 square feet of sail will slow them down a lot more if I roll them to windward than their 500 square feet of sail might slow me down if I pass to leeward. Unfortunately, a significant number of the smaller boats that see me bearing down on them bear away themselves, making it too risky to pass to leeward. How do you pass someone who doesn't understand his obligation to maintain course and speed?

If by bearing away you're signaling that you want to get rolled, I'm more than happy to oblige.
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