Question re: guns on board in Bahamas

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

For the first part - there's about zero proof that having a gun on the high seas makes one safer. Like with guns in homes, I'd bet that statistically speaking, it would make your boat less safe. Also, if you're alone in a sketchy area, and the not-nice guys find out that you have a gun... you might as well have an unlocked cash machine on board too. The gun would make it more likely you'll get hit, not less.

So to the other point: the 'outlier', in terms of the global cruising community, is the one who thinks that carrying a gun aboard is a reasonable precaution, worth the hassle, and harmless to the community, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Of course I realize that you and the other pro-'guns on boats' posters are the safest gun owners on the seas, and you all have the agility, experience and cool of a Navy SEAL, so of course the above won't apply to you; it's just a caution to lesser mortals. Please disregard.

Capt Phil's story? Tragic. Gut wrenching. But the problem wasn't lack of gun; it was being in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's the real lesson there. Bringing it up in a gun thread is not that germane.

Got to agree with this.. never been anywhere where I would have felt safer carrying a weapon..
Not the Caribe islands, not Colon, not even Karachi.. but then I am not going to war..
Peace man..

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by OldMan

This thread needs renamed: #MeTooAfraidOfGuns

I actually like shotguns and rifles.. and have used them for hunting in the past and was what they call a sharpshooter in the Navy.
I just dont get an erection over them.. not a part of my fun.

[OldMan]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I actually like shotguns and rifles.. and have used them for hunting in the past and was what they call a sharpshooter in the Navy.
I just dont get an erection over them.. not a part of my fun.

Just like batteries, anchors, etc. It's amusing to watch how overly exuberant some get about other's choices.

[SnakeEyes]

First day of the new year and allready a gun thread.

Its gone be a interesting 2019. CF always delivers.

[LittleWing77]

A bit of a peripheral perspective: I was a Charter Skipper for the Moorings in the BVIs and at that partcular time, all of the boats were Beneteaus, painted the same colour, with the same dinghies. We would regularly hear charterers' stories about mixing up dingies or boats - the funniest of which was one holidaymaker who had been onshore dancing and drinking some seriously strong rum punches, eventually stumbled to his dinghy, motored out to what he thought was his chartered Beneteau (in an anchorage of identical Moorings Beneteaus) and got into bed with someone else's wife.

I understand it provoked much hilarity amongst the fleet that week.

After reading this thread just glad there was no one aboard waiting with a gun!

Never had any firearms aboard and will not sail in a boat that has firearms, but then that's just me.

Best wishes in the New Year, All,
LittleWing

[Group9]

Originally Posted by SnakeEyes

First day of the new year and allready a gun thread.

Its gone be a interesting 2019. CF always delivers.

Guns and anchors bring out all of the usual suspects!

That would be a great name for a sailing oriented band.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

It’s national PTSD as a result of YOU guys failing to comply with the Treaty of Jay. That’s why we keep guns on this side of the lake in case you guys take Oswego and refuse to return it again.

Then again....if it were up to me I’d be willing to trade Niagara Falls and Oswego for Kingston. That way we get both sides of the st Lawrence like we wanted, you get both sides of the Niagara like you wanted, and you recover the formerly illegally occupied Oswego for free.

I'll take that trade but you have to take Quebec too

[Uricanejack]

Originally Posted by Capt Phil

A very good friend( long dead, unfortunately) from Vancouver, Canada, was vacationing in the Bahamas back in the 80’s. He and his wife were staying on a friends boat and were walking on the beach when they were attacked by about 3-4 Bahamians, so they thought.
She was raped by all 4 attackers and he was soundly beaten and spent several weeks in hospital. There were no witnesses so no charges were laid by the authorities in the Bahamas. His wife suffered greatly from the ordeal and committed suicide about a year later back in Vancouver. He was never the same after her death and went on to lead a solitary and non-productive life for many years.
Had he been armed, perhaps the outcome might have been different. As it turned out, her family and his were devastated and never really got over it.
The Bahamian laws regarding gun ownership are as much to blame as the thieves/ rapists in my opinion!
Phil

Unfortunate story. I am sorry it happened.

Please explain. Just HTF a gun locked in a box on thier boat would have helped.

[Mike OReilly]

To me, the issue presented here by the OP (who apparently has taken his marbles and gone home ) is the idea that his first reaction upon hearing approaching engine sounds at night is to reach for his gun. This strikes me as someone who should definitely NOT have a gun.

I don’t really care if you carry a gun. I think it is mostly a useless tool, and likely makes your boat less safe. It certainly makes legal international travel more difficult. But regardless, if a gun is necessary for your peace of mind, then so be it. Just don’t assume every late night engine sound is a someone coming to kill or rape.

The world is (mostly) not that scary.

[Cpt Pat]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

For the first part - there's about zero proof that having a gun on the high seas makes one safer. Like with guns in homes, I'd bet that statistically speaking, it would make your boat less safe. Also, if you're alone in a sketchy area, and the not-nice guys find out that you have a gun... you might as well have an unlocked cash machine on board too. The gun would make it more likely you'll get hit, not less.

Ask any police officer what their greatest fear is, and they will probably reply: "a bad guy gaining control of my weapon." Watch a well trained officer in public, and you'll see them always guarding their gun side. They know the bad guys can operate their thumb-break holster to release their weapon.

I lived in Texas for two years. I devoted a weekend to taking their concealed-carry course. There was zero instruction on weapon retention. And there you'd see people with guns stuck in their belts and waist bands. It just had to be concealed - not controlled. If a bad guy needs a gun, there's one-third chance he can get one from any random adult. Or, just like I did once, ride an escalator at a mall until the guy in front of you drops his gun on the moving stairs. "Clunk." "Ah, sir. You dropped your gun." There, guns were often just stuffed in a pants pocket. I often considered revising that old Mae West question into: "Are you happy to see me, or are you just stupid." But then, they were armed Texans, so I demurred.

I a was licensed private investigator in Washington State for the two years I lived there. I took the 4 hour course to carry, but I never did carry a gun. The likelihood that an encounter would escalate to a high level of violence was much higher because in a scuffle, the danger to me was much greater if I was armed because I'd have the added risk of an attacker gaining control of my weapon. Use it or lose it. I feel the same way on board. If some nefarious person were to sneak aboard by surprise, the likelihood I'd get to my gun first is dubious. And if they aren't armed, I'd prefer they stay that way. There are several official "rules of gun safety." Never have I heard listed: "Don't get shot by your own gun." In many cases, that is a (literally) fatal instructive omission.

If I'm going to have to defend myself from my own military - a common fantastical reason given for owning an arsenal - I'm going to need more than guns: a command, control, communications, and intelligence system; some fighter jets, and a few nukes. It's simpler to leave the country. Here in America, all a foreign adversary needs to do is shut down our electronic infrastructure and then sit back and watch us kill each other, while roving bands of "survivalists" (thugs) behave like Mogadishu warlords. And that's a real threat that keeps people up at night. That's a good reason to own a sailboat with access to an ocean.

If you want to appear armed, why not carve a wooden replica of a Browning M2HB machine gun and mount it on your foredeck? The Quakers found that approach effective on their ships ("Quaker Cannons"). It's probably legal everywhere, but I wouldn't want the attention it would draw. And please don't fly the American ensign. Our reputation is bad enough.

If I felt the need for a weapon on board, I'd carry a crossbow. Uncharged, it's harmless - just hide the "bolts." It's probably legal in most places, deadly at reasonable ranges, nearly silent, has no gun flash at night, and a bad guy will need instruction on how to use it against me.


Also, a knife taped to a boat hook can rigged in a hurry (especially when stuck in the traffic lanes with approaching freighters) and can be very versatile:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj8oXKjRZxE

[Hoosierdoc]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

Unfortunate story. I am sorry it happened.

Please explain. Just HTF a gun locked in a box on thier boat would have helped.

I carry a gun when I take my wife down the street in Indianapolis. Never needed it yet.

Sailing is all about preparing for the worst and having a backup plan right? When laws eliminate personal protection it really sucks.

If Bahamian law allowed him to carry a gun maybe he would have been carrying. The attack likely would have ended differently.

Sure, who knows. But HTF can you say it wouldn’t have?

No, the engine coming is likely not someone coming to rape you. But if they are, how would you defend against it?

[OldMan]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

To me, the issue presented here by the OP (who apparently has taken his marbles and gone home ) is the idea that his first reaction upon hearing approaching engine sounds at night is to reach for his gun. This strikes me as someone who should definitely NOT have a gun.

I don’t really care if you carry a gun. I think it is mostly a useless tool, and likely makes your boat less safe. It certainly makes legal international travel more difficult. But regardless, if a gun is necessary for your peace of mind, then so be it. Just don’t assume every late night engine sound is a someone coming to kill or rape.

The world is (mostly) not that scary.

Since you express an opinion about other's choices, it's certainly fair to ask you to qualify it. How many years and how many different/and what countries have you sailed/cruised? Please explain your claim of "makes your boat less safe".


Thanks!

[SouthernPride]

Interesting Question...I carry a crossbow for fishing...What kind of problems should I expect ?
Thanks

[Uricanejack]

Only I am not anti gun. Many of my friends are hunters and own and use fire arms for the purpose. I object in principle to trophy hunting. I don’t hunt because I don’t like it. I do go fishing. I object to trophy fishing.
If you are going to go out and kill something for food, go ahead, do so ethically and eat what you kill. Fine by me. If you want to bring your own gun or fishing rod to Canada and hun5 or fish according to our rules. Go ahead.

I am not and never have been tough or brave, I have traveled the world in my younger days. Including places which might be considered dangerous. I have never felt the need to carry a gun.

I find being polite and respectful to the locals has allowed me to travel the world without bother.

With the exception of a couple of small towns in Australia. Bunbury, Dampier and Thevenard. Aussie,s take offence quite easily, but will drink a beer with you after a square go.

The only place I have ever been concerned for my safety was in the USA.

For the most part it’s been a friendly place to visit,
I stopped a Texan co worker. from getting seriously hurt one night. He was drunk,loud waving a knife a 4 young men and using a word they don’t like, All I did was say he,s a drunk idiot. Leave him be. I took his knife away. And explain an empty wallets not worth getting killed over.

The young men, shook my hand, told me to keep him quite and get him out of there. Which I did, I didn’t even raise a fist I was polite.
I knew the Texan I had been working with him for a while. So letting him get his ass kicked was not on.
you going to go drink in a rough town. Don’t get to drunk. He was pissed of at me about his wallet though. Fortunately he didn’t have a gun. If he did I would have been to scared of what the stupid pussy would have done with it to try and help him.

last time I was in the US my wife and I decided to walk back to our hotel. It never occurred to me it wasn’t a good area for walking at night until. Until someone pointed at us and said “Hey White People”. Chatted with them for a bit and went on our way.

Nobody bothered us.

If you don’t have the balls to go someplace without a gun. Maybe you shouldn’t.t go there.

[jmschmidt]

Have any of you ever looked at the statistics on people; men, women, even young girls, defending themselves with guns? It's in the tens of thousands of incidents every year in the US. And, the vast majority of these cases do not involve a gun even being fired. It's called deterrence. It's like the old question, "If everyone was carrying a gun what kind of civilization would that be? A very polite one I'd guess. That would be the case even if you only though everyone else was carrying a gun.

Suicides make up 80% of the gun deaths in the US. US cops kill 300 people a year by mistake.

Firearms were outlawed amongst the general population in Australia and the government bought back the previously owned guns from the law abiding citizens. Now the only people with guns are criminals. Gun crimes and suicides are way down, of course, but non-gun crimes have skyrocketed. Criminals don't need guns to victimize and unarmed population.