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Old 04-03-2019, 09:19   #1
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Question: Do you have weapons on board? Reply: Would you like more coffee?

Okay, PLEASE let's not make a gun thread or a political thread regarding this post.

Suggest y'all just read the gCaptain article linked below, titled: Do you have any weapons aboard?; and just enjoy the nuances of a Vessel Master handling the routine administrative procedural matters of a US Army ship prepared to obtain permission to transit the Panama Canal. Id est, no reply posts really being necessary. Let's just consider that subject battle having been fought beyond need.

Albeit, I suspect that a yacht skipper could not successfully take the same evasive approach to answering such clearance question.

https://gcaptain.com/do-you-have-any...eid=5626ef2c30
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Old 04-03-2019, 09:48   #2
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Re: Question: Do you have weapons on board? Reply: Would you like more coffee?

Nice story, thanks for taking the time.
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Old 04-03-2019, 10:01   #3
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Question: Do you have weapons on board? Reply: Would you like more coffee?

There is often no logic though, even in the Military.
The 2AD Commanders Office sent down an order to the flight line in Ft Hood Tx demanding that all the 30 MM cannons would be removed form the helicopters and stored in the arms room after each flight.
We tried explaining how much work that would entail, but to deaf ears.
The only thing that did work was when we sent up a copy of what the readiness report would look like if we complied, the 2AD would have the lowest readiness rate in the Army, by far.
That squashed it.
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Old 04-03-2019, 11:20   #4
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Re: Question: Do you have weapons on board? Reply: Would you like more coffee?

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
There is often no logic though, even in the Military.
The 2AD Commanders Office sent down an order to the flight line in Ft Hood Tx demanding that all the 30 MM cannons would be removed form the helicopters and stored in the arms room after each flight.
We tried explaining how much work that would entail, but to deaf ears.
The only thing that did work was when we sent up a copy of what the readiness report would look like if we complied, the 2AD would have the lowest readiness rate in the Army, by far.
That squashed it.
Sounds like they were concerned about an accidental discharge of the cannons.

Such an Opps has been know to occur, such as when a Belgian F-16 Accidentally Fires Gatling Gun, Destroys Another F-16 on the Ground. Reference article https://www.businessinsider.com/phot...-in-a-hangar-1
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Old 05-03-2019, 09:56   #5
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Re: Question: Do you have weapons on board? Reply: Would you like more coffee?

Was curious as to equal rank of a CWO 4.....chief warrant officer in the Navy. That would be U>S. Navy , Lt. Commander, and a major in the Army.

The CWO 4, as Captain of that army vessel, was one clever skipper.

Got the job done, and was able to complete his mission .

Outstanding
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Old 05-03-2019, 10:23   #6
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Question: Do you have weapons on board? Reply: Would you like more coffee?

Warrant Officers have no equal rank.
They are sort of an anomaly. Considered to be subject matter experts, but rarely in the line of Command.
They have always been an odd ball, which neither the Navy or Army knows what to do with.
In the Army a PA will be a Warrant Officer, while a Nurse will be a Lt or higher for example, while in the Medical field I believe a PA outranks if you will a Nurse, the lowest Lt. outranks the most senior Warrant Officer.

Back 30 or years ago the Army was going to eliminate the Warrant Officer corps, it was called the TWO’s study, the Total Warrant Officer Study.
The idea was to institute limited duty officers like the Navy has and “promote” Warrants to the Regular Officer equalivent. Then they found out what that would cost and decided against it.

In the Vietnam war years there was a rather large pay raise that covered both Enlisted and Commissioned pay grades, but as a Warrant Officer is neither, they didn’t get the raise, ever since then there has been a disparity in pay between say an O-3 and a CW3. Same for 2’s and 4’s of course.
Warrant Officers were never Commissioned Officers, but we became Commissioned in the late 80’s I believe.

To further muddy the waters, officers are segregated by branch, Artillery is a Branch as is Aviation and Armor for example.
All Warrant Officers are in the Warrant Officer branch, although we may serve in Aviation or Transportation etc. We wore the Warrant Officer insignia not the Aviation insignia, which further aggravated the Officer Corps.
In my day, an Officer always flew with a Warrant Officer, and the Officer may be the unit Commander, but the Warrant was always the Pilot in Command of the aircraft.

The brotherhood of the Warrant Officer has been greatly diminished over the years though.
While a Lt will salute a CPT. And address him or her as Sir or Mam. The lowest W1 will not salute any other Warrant Officer and will address all other Warrants by their first name.
No rank among Warrants or Whores was the saying.
Warrant Officers are properly addressed as Mr. or I guess Ms., although I have never seen a female Warrant Officer now that I think about it.

I Retired in 2002 as a CW3 myself, I had four years Enlisted time is why I wasn’t a CW4.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warr...(United_States)
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Old 05-03-2019, 12:59   #7
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Re: Question: Do you have weapons on board? Reply: Would you like more coffee?

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
... I Retired in 2002 as a CW3 myself, I had four years Enlisted time is why I wasn’t a CW4.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warr...(United_States)
So, you can read, write, add, and subtract. Well done!
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Old 05-03-2019, 13:50   #8
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Re: Question: Do you have weapons on board? Reply: Would you like more coffee?

Great story, and thanks for posting this. I was unaware that military vessels only travel at night but it makes sense.


For those interested here is some info on the namesake of the vessel. His MOS, or military operating specialty, was 61B20 which is a watercraft operator. He was on a river patrol boat, probably similar to the one in the movie Apocalypse Now.
http://www.virtualwall.org/dl/LouxJA01a.htm


Specialist Four James A. Loux distinguished himself while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an armed hostile force in the Republic of Vietnam. Assigned to the 458th River Patrol Boat Company, Specialist Four Loux was a seaman aboard a river boat transporting aviation fuel in support of combat operations near Cho Thu Bay Village. When his boat struck an enemy mine and was engulfed in flames, the enemy force laid down a deadly crossfire directed from both banks of the canal. Although gravely wounded, he immediately raced to his machine gun and returned fire. Specialist Four Loux continued to fire upon the hostile force until they broke contact. These actions enabled the rest of the vessels to proceed on their mission. Specialist Four Loux died of his wounds on 5 April, 1971.

This brave soldier and Army mariner received the Silver Star Medal for gallantry.

He was interred in: Oak Hill Cemetery Owosso Shiawassee County, Michigan. Comments/Citation
An Army logistics support vessel, LSV-6, was named in honor of SP4 Loux. Memorializing SP4 Loux by naming LSV-6 for him serves to inspire future Army mariners and honor a soldier who gave his life for his comrades and his country.

LSV-6, crewed by the Soldiers of the 411th Transportation Detachment, is currently stationed in the Persian Gulf.
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Old 05-03-2019, 14:45   #9
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Re: Question: Do you have weapons on board? Reply: Would you like more coffee?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihuedooley77 View Post
Was curious as to equal rank of a CWO 4.....chief warrant officer in the Navy. That would be U>S. Navy , Lt. Commander, and a major in the Army.

The CWO 4, as Captain of that army vessel, was one clever skipper.

Got the job done, and was able to complete his mission .

Outstanding
The use of the word captain in this case is a title but not a pay grade. The Captain is a Chief Warrant Officer 4, as opposed to a Captain (O-3) in the Army or Captain in the Navy (O-6),


A64 Pilot posted some great comments on the Warrant Officer (WO) position, and alluded to the technical nature of the position. In the U.S. Army, Navy, and Marines (The US Air Force doesn't use the position of WO) the warrant officer is usually a technical position such as helicopter pilot, maintenance, etc. This is because normally, a person changes jobs as they move up in rank. The warrant officer rank allows a highly skilled person to remain in their position for extended periods of time, thus preserving their valuable skills.


There are technical differences between the types of officers which are non-commissioned officers (NCOs), warrant officers (WOs), and commissioned officers. In the U.S, WOs are appointed by a warrant, which is different than a commissioned officer, who is appointed by a commission. One of the terchnical differences is that commissioned officers can command a unit. This is different than leading a unit. Command authority allows for various legal actions such as approving awards, disciplinary action, approving leave and passes, signing orders, etc. NCOs are enlisted men and leaders but just not commissioned and are ranked as sergeants and corporals. Officers are more involved with planning and NCOs and WOs are more directly involved with executing. Again, a wise officer will take advice from, and involve, his NCOs and WOs.



Officers' pay grades start at O-1 (2nd Lieutenant or 2LT) and goe up to O-10, aka General (4 stars). Enlisted men start at E-1 (Private) and go up to E-9, Sergeant Major or Command Sergeant Major. Although technically a Second Lieutenant is a higher rank than a Sergeant Major or a Warrant Officer, it is foolish Lieutenant who will fail to heed their advice in the majority of situations.
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Old 05-03-2019, 15:34   #10
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Re: Question: Do you have weapons on board? Reply: Would you like more coffee?

There used to be (might still be) a sign at the entrance to Ranger HQ, Ft. Benning, to the effect of "Welcome to the home of the most dangerous weapons in the world, the US Army Rangers". In their point of view, unarmed, barefoot and naked, a Ranger is still the most dangerous weapon in the arsenal.

And similarly, under NYC's "Sullivan Law", generally meant as a firearms restriction act, if you had ANY formal martial arts training, even pro boxing, you were required to register because your arms and legs were considered deadly weapons. If Mohamad Ali put his hands in his pockets--yeah, in theory that was a concealed weapons charge in NYC.

So when a nice man asks you about having any weapons...yeah, try not to laugh too hard. In the 70's some beancounters got upset by the number of Cross pens that the CIA bought, and issued to field agents. That's not a pen, that's a dart, or a stiletto. Ask any jail keeper to show you their display case with confiscated improvised weapons. Guns??

Would that be, derringers? Or the 16" naval kind of guns?

One would hope the Canal Authority would train their personnel better, as to what was and wasn't a military vessel.
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Old 05-03-2019, 16:08   #11
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Re: Question: Do you have weapons on board? Reply: Would you like more coffee?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Guns??

Would that be, derringers? Or the 16" naval kind of guns?

One would hope the Canal Authority would train their personnel better, as to what was and wasn't a military vessel.


Good post! We were always taught that a gun was a crew served weapon. I highly doubt that most authorities would appreciate the difference.


I wonder if there was an English as a second language issue. Much like with air traffic and air crew, sometimes certain words don't translate well, and these nuances can cause varying degrees of communication issues. It's also possible that he was but a cog in the wheels of bureaucracy. Perhaps he was required to ask the question and he wasn't able to come up with a more effective way to ask the question.
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Old 05-03-2019, 16:09   #12
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Question: Do you have weapons on board? Reply: Would you like more coffee?

If memory serves in 1987, I became a “Commissioned Warrant
Officer”
https://warrantofficerhistory.org/PD...WO(NDAA86).pdf
Which further blurred the difference between a Warrant and what we called an RLO or “real live Officer” as a joke of course.
Without a Commission you can’t administer UCMJ and or Command, which was the major difference between a Warrant and a Commissioned Officer, once Warrants were Commissioned of course that changed.

Warrant Officers were always a pain in the side of some Commissioned Officers, like I said all Warrants addressed each other by their first names and didn’t come to attention or Salute a senior Warrant, which Commissioned Officers did.
Also the CW4 was the highest rank a Warrant could obtain, you could reach CW4 in 14 yrs or so, and after that you were untouchable. The normal way to control any person in the Military is by retention, you must continue to be promoted or you will be “Passed over” and kicked out, do not pass go, do not collect any Retirement.
Once being promoted to CW4, as long as you didn’t do anything criminal you couldn’t be kicked out etc.
We used to joke that all they could do was bend your dog tags and stamp your meal card no desert.
Well that changed before my Retirement when CW5 was introduced, now you had a way you could kick out all those incorrigible CW4’s, and by the time I left there was talk of requiring all other Warrants to salute CW5’s.
A lot of the CW5’s were looked down on by other Warrants as they were the cream of the political types, and some were even wearing branch insignia and not the “Squashed bug” of the Warrant Branch.
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Old 05-03-2019, 16:30   #13
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Re: Question: Do you have weapons on board? Reply: Would you like more coffee?

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... the cream of the political types, and some were even wearing branch insignia and not the “Squashed bug” of the Warrant Branch.

Argh, the dreaded power point rangers.
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Old 05-03-2019, 16:51   #14
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Re: Question: Do you have weapons on board? Reply: Would you like more coffee?

weapons, flare GUN, spear GUN, EVERY kitchen untensil, long screwdrivers, bleach and ammonia mixed 50/50 makes a take of mustard gas and lets not mention all the ROPE that you can do unpleasent things with. WHY are government officials so worried about crusiers and not the real criminals that traffic people?
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Old 05-03-2019, 17:34   #15
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Re: Question: Do you have weapons on board? Reply: Would you like more coffee?

Great info...

A bit of help.

As to pay grade.

What pay grade would a CWO 4 be equal to ....in the USN, and the Army ?.

I really have no clue. My squadron, VP -17, Naval Air, ( P- 2V 7's ) Neptunes, we did not have any warrant officers, just commissioned officers, and the enlisted ranks .

Also, was the reason for the warrant officer designation, instead of commissioned officer, due to a lack of a 4 yr college degree . But the branch of the military needed their leader ship skills and experience .

Just remembered, we did have one of our maintenance chiefs promoted , perhaps on the LDO, program, and he became an ensign. How ever, he could not remain in our squadron , was was transferred to another P -2 squadron, on the same base.

Many of us enlisted pukes, went over to the other squadron's hangar's spaces, tracked him down, to render him a salute. That was the respect that we had for the man. And, yes , he was missed.

Just as an aside.....all of my officers, that I reported directly to , everyone one of them was a Pilot in Command, and had all of my respect and still do. They were also ring knockers ( Naval Academy ). That was way back yonder in 1964 to 1966. ,

Don't tell anyone, but they pulled my bacon out of the fire on a couple of occasions.

This post is bringing back good memories,

Thank you.
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